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  • #31
    Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Or move the ARW to Baldonnel.
    Never gonna happen.About as likely as SAS moving to London
    Moving the duty team to Baldonnel is the obvious answer - firstly its easier than moving the positively glacier-esque AC to the Curragh
    The duty team don't just sit around the Compound waiting on a a call.They are training.Usually NOT in Baldonnel. Having the lads sitting around the 'Don scratching their asses when they could be training in the DFTC in their purpose made facilities would be like keeping a Ferrari in a garage.

    secondly it's closer to where the action is likely to be, and thirdly it would add weight to the concept of using Baldonnel as Ireland's designated 'hijack' destination, much like Stansted is in the UK.
    Flight time from the 'Don to the DFTC is minutes or they can blue light it from the DFTC to the 'Don. Ireland has a designated Airport for Hijackings(MOD:Don't ask,OPSEC. if you can figure it out don't post.) and it's not the 'Don.Probably due to the size of it's runway vis a vis potential Hijacked Aircraft size.
    A more fundamental problem however remains, that with 6AW-139's, you simply don't, and can't, have enough helicopters at 10 mins NTM, 24/365, to move a CT team and its support (EOD), to where it needs to be.

    Beginning, middle, end. Without addressing that, there's an element of window dressing about where you put them...
    Agreed.Again.Why? Because EAS is taking up so many airframes and crews.Add to that birds down for maintenance and what are we left with? Wadi EAS and we get our birds back and they can be retasked. But the pilots love EAS so that's like Turkeys voting for Christmas

    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    The fundamental issue is lack of AC personnel
    Again Wadi EAS and get the crews detached to Athlone back.Look at that we just upped our numbers in a heartbeat.

    Originally posted by morpheus View Post
    Lets be honest, 2 NH90 or equivalent Medium lift helis and 2 crews are far more capable than 6 AW139 requiring 6 crews - if you need to lift a platoon's worth of rangers.
    Don't forget ARW platoons and teams are not the same size of say an Infantry Platoon/sections.They can do more with less.

    Originally posted by CTU View Post
    Would it not make more sense for the garda to replace the defender with a EC145, that way they could at least deploy an ERU team by air outside Dublin.
    As for the ARW, how long did it take SAS "Blue Thunder" to land on London Bridge after the attack
    No.They already can deploy ERU outside of Dublin by Air using AC AW139's and have done so operationally before. AC Helos don't have to land to deploy ARW. They can fastrope or Abseil.Hell they can even Helocast into the feckin Liffey if push comes to shove.
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    Last edited by apod; 12 December 2017, 22:58.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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    • #32
      The SAS are in London and are on a timed notice to move.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Craghopper View Post
        The SAS are in London and are on a timed notice to move.
        and have A109s

        Comment


        • #34
          And are embedded in joint teams with the Mets CT SFO's...

          Which, realistically, is the future pattern - which then blows the 'unarmed, armed, specialist, then finally SF' chain of escalation out of the window.

          Unless, of course, having doctrine that's 40 years behind everyone else's isn't just happenstance but deliberate policy...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ropebag View Post
            And are embedded in joint teams with the Mets CT SFO's...

            Which, realistically, is the future pattern - which then blows the 'unarmed, armed, specialist, then finally SF' chain of escalation out of the window.

            Unless, of course, having doctrine that's 40 years behind everyone else's isn't just happenstance but deliberate policy...
            Depends on the reason why they are embedded

            The legal situation is also different

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              Depends on the reason why they are embedded

              The legal situation is also different
              Or. the cops are trying to keep the gig all to themselves

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              • #37
                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                Depends on the reason why they are embedded...
                What reasons do you think the Met and home office mighthave thought that having joint SFO/SF teams was a good idea DeV?

                So tell me about the legal situation then, tell me about the insurmountable legal and constitutional hurdles that would prevent the Gardai, Justice and Defence proposing joint teams and cabinet approving it?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                  What reasons do you think the Met and home office mighthave thought that having joint SFO/SF teams was a good idea DeV?

                  So tell me about the legal situation then, tell me about the insurmountable legal and constitutional hurdles that would prevent the Gardai, Justice and Defence proposing joint teams and cabinet approving it?
                  There are very few legal restrictions that aren’t insurmountable apart from funds of the highest possible courts (even the Constitution can be amended).

                  We are talking about different legal jurisdictions with different laws.

                  In Irish experience it was found to be a very very bad idea.

                  I’m not going into restricted operational documents.

                  Just because the Met/SAS do it in London doesn’t mean everyone else should or is allowed
                  Last edited by DeV; 13 December 2017, 20:29.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by sofa View Post
                    Or. the cops are trying to keep the gig all to themselves
                    Amazing how "Senior Gardai" came out and attacked the DF response times etc to a terrorist incident a couple of days after the DF Exercise.
                    Nothing at all to do with "Defence sources" highlighting the lack of AGS presence at the CMTA course in the DFTC.

                    When the SHTF it wont be the terrorists that kill the most people but inter-agency rivalry,politics and grandstanding.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      In Irish experience it was found to be a very very bad idea
                      That was then.Poorly trained Gardai and Soldiers(by todays standards).
                      This is now. ARW and ERU are very different now to the early 80's and train together constantly.

                      Having said that ERU always have one eye on the European convention on human rights when they operate. ARW when deployed would have a a lot more "freedom" given to them by Government(COC: OC ARW straight to the minister).That's why they are the last resort.If they get called in the bad guys would be lucky to leave in cuffs and not body bags.
                      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by apod View Post
                        That was then.Poorly trained Gardai and Soldiers(by todays standards).
                        This is now. ARW and ERU are very different now to the early 80's and train together constantly.

                        Having said that ERU always have one eye on the European convention on human rights when they operate. ARW when deployed would have a a lot more "freedom" given to them by Government(COC: OC ARW straight to the minister).That's why they are the last resort.If they get called in the bad guys would be lucky to leave in cuffs and not body bags.
                        Again I can only give perspective from a UK viewpoint...but I'd be pretty certain that the ARW and by extension the Irish Government are still accountable to ECHR legislation.

                        The tactics used by the ARW to 'resolve' a situation may differ from those of the Garda, but they're still answerable to the courts.

                        The preferred option in Northern Ireland was to use the RUC HMSU in anti-terrorist ops...but on more than a few occasions the SAS were deployed almost always with fatal results for the erstwhile 'freedom' fighters. But even the SAS are accountable...see the numerous court cases being dragged up in our courts.

                        Of course...if the courts are satisfied that there was no other way to deal with the threat than by killing said ****s...alls fair in love and terrorism.

                        So I'm guessing the ARW get deployed in circumstances where the ERU is out of its depth...as was the case with the HMSU...awesome as they are...on quite a few occasions.
                        'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                        • #42
                          the current use of SF (its a joint SAS/SBS pool) to supplement civilian police in the UK has two purposes - firstly the traditional 'to weigh in when the rozzers are out of their depth' role, but arguably more importantly given the massive strides the Police CT SFO's have made in capability to take on both active shooter and hostage rescue tasks, its to just massively increase the number of very highly trained, heavily armed people available to respond to these events.

                          this, i think, is being lost in this debate - all this stuff about who turns up and when utterly fails to grasp that these events last 10 minutes, if your people aren't there by then, these geezers will just drive off. or have killed a hundred people...

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by spider View Post
                            Again I can only give perspective from a UK viewpoint...but I'd be pretty certain that the ARW and by extension the Irish Government are still accountable to ECHR legislation.

                            The tactics used by the ARW to 'resolve' a situation may differ from those of the Garda, but they're still answerable to the courts.

                            The preferred option in Northern Ireland was to use the RUC HMSU in anti-terrorist ops...but on more than a few occasions the SAS were deployed almost always with fatal results for the erstwhile 'freedom' fighters. But even the SAS are accountable...see the numerous court cases being dragged up in our courts.

                            Of course...if the courts are satisfied that there was no other way to deal with the threat than by killing said ****s...alls fair in love and terrorism.

                            So I'm guessing the ARW get deployed in circumstances where the ERU is out of its depth...as was the case with the HMSU...awesome as they are...on quite a few occasions.
                            Don't get me wrong ARW are not some sort of death squad, and they do have rules to follow same as the rest of us.But,and it's a big but,the norm for ARW response is for "control" of a situation to be signed over from civil control to military control and back again when " resolved ".This is in effect martial law for the duration of the response. We all know what that means.



                            Now the civil /military control procedures may be different now due to the fast response required in an MTA situation but if you look at the scenarios exercised last week the deployment at Dublin Port didn't include Armed Gardai. It was a Military only show.
                            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Depends on the reason why they are embedded

                              The legal situation is also different
                              They are imbedded for the reason we're talking on this subject. I was talking to the guys from the Met who came over for the C-CMTA course . They have negated the need to hand over to the military by signing an agreement that's in their statute books. Very interesting conversation and very interesting brief they gave.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                                the current use of SF (its a joint SAS/SBS pool) to supplement civilian police in the UK has two purposes - firstly the traditional 'to weigh in when the rozzers are out of their depth' role, but arguably more importantly given the massive strides the Police CT SFO's have made in capability to take on both active shooter and hostage rescue tasks, its to just massively increase the number of very highly trained, heavily armed people available to respond to these events.

                                this, i think, is being lost in this debate - all this stuff about who turns up and when utterly fails to grasp that these events last 10 minutes, if your people aren't there by then, these geezers will just drive off. or have killed a hundred people...
                                I'd throw the SRR in there too

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