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  1. #1
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Major CT ex yesterday

    500 troops involved yesterday

    This gives you an idea of the scenario
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...4zQhY.facebook

  2. #2
    Brigadier General
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    According to Ian O'Doherty's article in last Thursday Indo the cops never turned up for the major exercise attended by 15 other countries

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  4. #3
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    According to Ian O'Doherty's article in last Thursday Indo the cops never turned up for the major exercise attended by 15 other countries
    it was a course in the DFTC

    Think they had people on previous ones

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  6. #4
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    Ian O D is a serial whiner. I've not experienced anyone so disagreeable.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Ian O D is a serial whiner. I've not experienced anyone so disagreeable.
    True, but read the full article it was fighting the DFs corner.

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  9. #6
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...ck-818026.html

    Que ARW looking for medium lift helis on 24hr availability - never happen though
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  11. #7
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    They should have got them when they last asked for them in 2001. While the order was cancelled, the requirement didn't change.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  13. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    They should have got them when they last asked for them in 2001. While the order was cancelled, the requirement didn't change.
    Except the contract was for 4 (3 of which were for SAR)

    Edit

    5 (3 for SAR plus an option for 2 troop transport)
    Last edited by DeV; 11th December 2017 at 10:45.

  14. #9
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...ck-818026.html

    Que ARW looking for medium lift helis on 24hr availability - never happen though
    There is a requirement for a 24/7 utility helo at x NTM for many tasks

    EAS is going to absorb a lot of available resources

    We can get all the helos we want still can’t crew and maintain them due to lack of personnel or do ATC

  15. #10
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    My point stands. The last WP (which as we all know is policy/gospel etc) identified the need to maintain/generate
    a 24 hour general helicopter capability for a variety of military and non-military tasks, including Garda support..
    Defence Forces White Paper Feb 2000. 4.10.4
    Clearly that no longer exists.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  17. #11
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    EAS is going to absorb a lot of available resources
    four big red choppers sat there being paid for which could do the job
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  19. #12
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    My point stands. The last WP (which as we all know is policy/gospel etc) identified the need to maintain/generate
    Defence Forces White Paper Feb 2000. 4.10.4
    Clearly that no longer exists.
    “... helicopters will continue to provide the required level of Defence Forces support....” doesn’t state what it is

  20. #13
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    four big red choppers sat there being paid for which could do the job
    They are doing them too in fairness

    But there is probably enough work for at least 1 dedicated assets (provided by someone)

    Does CHC provide for an AP on all rosters (or is it still a paramedic)?

  21. #14
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    The only way you are going to get a helicopter and associated ground and flight crew for ARW is if you physically pry one out of the Don and permanently assign it to ARW and station it in the Curragh for their exclusive use. This would have to burst several bubbles; that the Army can be trusted to run a single helicopter without AC support. This is entirely possible, of course but the Don will fight tooth and nail to prevent it, as any thing that reduces their establishment will not be tolerated; that the ARW might have the wit, skill and talent to run a single helicopter. Of course they do. If the ARW could considered to be the peak of soldiering, intellectually and physically, in the DF, then running a helicopter will be child's play for them; do what grown up Armies do and permanently assign a helicopter and manpower to the SF, so that they are not dependent on the humours and moods of another agency. I'm quite sure the ARW can be taught how to change an oil filter or a rotor blade without the earth tilting off it's axis...

  22. #15
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    EAS is what is killing our capability.Great for getting the pilots hours up,and yes there are transferable skills such as experience of landing on unprepared sites and NVG flying,but EAS at the end of the day should be done by civvies.You know ,like most other countries do.Get civvy companies to sponsor them like in the UK and get the AC back flying for the Military.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  23. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The only way you are going to get a helicopter and associated ground and flight crew for ARW is if you physically pry one out of the Don and permanently assign it to ARW and station it in the Curragh for their exclusive use. This would have to burst several bubbles; that the Army can be trusted to run a single helicopter without AC support. This is entirely possible, of course but the Don will fight tooth and nail to prevent it, as any thing that reduces their establishment will not be tolerated; that the ARW might have the wit, skill and talent to run a single helicopter. Of course they do. If the ARW could considered to be the peak of soldiering, intellectually and physically, in the DF, then running a helicopter will be child's play for them; do what grown up Armies do and permanently assign a helicopter and manpower to the SF, so that they are not dependent on the humours and moods of another agency. I'm quite sure the ARW can be taught how to change an oil filter or a rotor blade without the earth tilting off it's axis...
    Or move the ARW to Baldonnel.

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  25. #17
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    Moving the duty team to Baldonnel is the obvious answer - firstly its easier than moving the positively glacier-esque AC to the Curragh, secondly it's closer to where the action is likely to be, and thirdly it would add weight to the concept of using Baldonnel as Ireland's designated 'hijack' destination, much like Stansted is in the UK.

    A more fundamental problem however remains, that with 6AW-139's, you simply don't, and can't, have enough helicopters at 10 mins NTM, 24/365, to move a CT team and its support (EOD), to where it needs to be.

    Beginning, middle, end. Without addressing that, there's an element of window dressing about where you put them...

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  27. #18
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The fundamental issue is lack of AC personnel

  28. #19
    C/S Tempest's Avatar
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    The issues being addressed would still have been relevent in the day when the AC had pretty much a full flying complement and 15 choppers Dev.

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  30. #20
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    Sorry, fat, cold fingers - that should have been a like.

    You're right - the AC could have 5 times as many people as it currently has, and with 6 139's it still couldn't do the task.

    The CT task needs bigger helicopters, and it needs more of them. Crewing the 139's and thinking they'll do the job is like giving a snowball a hat and thinking it can sit on a Greek beach in July.

    Waste. Of. Time.

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  32. #21
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Lets be honest, 2 NH90 or equivalent Medium lift helis and 2 crews are far more capable than 6 AW139 requiring 6 crews - if you need to lift a platoon's worth of rangers.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  34. #22
    BQMS EUFighter's Avatar
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    Lets not get ahead of ourselves on the CT topic.

    The first responders will be the Gardaí, in Dublin the ERU and outside the Dublin region the RSUs. Once they have responded to an incident then and only then will they make the call that it is a Terrorist Incident. The ARW will only be called in if they cannot cope with the situation and need additional support. Having a helicopter lift from the Curragh is not going to make much of a difference and even if it is available there needs to be suitable landing sites near the incident. Not something you can find easily in the centre of Dublin or most Irish cities. If you want to see a good timeline look at the incidents in Paris, Brussels and Munich. The latter was an idiot on a shooting rampage in the city which started just before 18:00 on a summers evening (so plenty of light) and despite more than 2300 armed responders including SEK and GSG9 it took them until 20:30 to locate the shooter who then killed himself. The whole time it was live on TV and no-one knew just what was going on. That is the nature of such incidents.

    On a side note for comparison the Bavarian police have 8 H135 (EC135) helicopters which are supported by 100 personnel and they provide 24/7 coverage. One reason why the H135 is used is its small size meaning it does not need much room to land, a key factor in modern cities. Even the German SFs have the H135s bigger brother, the H145, again for the small footprint it has. With SFs we are not talking about moving large numbers of troops, it is about small teams. As long as we can fast rope from the EC135s they could be suitable for a response (the 2 AC and the 2 GASU together).

    This is not to saw that the airlift capacity of the AC should not be expanded but until some more fundamental organisational issues are sorted it would be a waste of resources.

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  36. #23
    BQMS EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Lets be honest, 2 NH90 or equivalent Medium lift helis and 2 crews are far more capable than 6 AW139 requiring 6 crews - if you need to lift a platoon's worth of rangers.
    Only if NHI can get the availability above the fleet average of 40%, it was even as low as 19% for the Finns!
    Nice machine but could be better.

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  38. #24
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
    The issues being addressed would still have been relevent in the day when the AC had pretty much a full flying complement and 15 choppers Dev.
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Sorry, fat, cold fingers - that should have been a like.

    You're right - the AC could have 5 times as many people as it currently has, and with 6 139's it still couldn't do the task.

    The CT task needs bigger helicopters, and it needs more of them. Crewing the 139's and thinking they'll do the job is like giving a snowball a hat and thinking it can sit on a Greek beach in July.

    Waste. Of. Time.
    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Lets be honest, 2 NH90 or equivalent Medium lift helis and 2 crews are far more capable than 6 AW139 requiring 6 crews - if you need to lift a platoon's worth of rangers.
    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Lets not get ahead of ourselves on the CT topic.

    The first responders will be the Gardaí, in Dublin the ERU and outside the Dublin region the RSUs. Once they have responded to an incident then and only then will they make the call that it is a Terrorist Incident. The ARW will only be called in if they cannot cope with the situation and need additional support. Having a helicopter lift from the Curragh is not going to make much of a difference and even if it is available there needs to be suitable landing sites near the incident. Not something you can find easily in the centre of Dublin or most Irish cities. If you want to see a good timeline look at the incidents in Paris, Brussels and Munich. The latter was an idiot on a shooting rampage in the city which started just before 18:00 on a summers evening (so plenty of light) and despite more than 2300 armed responders including SEK and GSG9 it took them until 20:30 to locate the shooter who then killed himself. The whole time it was live on TV and no-one knew just what was going on. That is the nature of such incidents.

    On a side note for comparison the Bavarian police have 8 H135 (EC135) helicopters which are supported by 100 personnel and they provide 24/7 coverage. One reason why the H135 is used is its small size meaning it does not need much room to land, a key factor in modern cities. Even the German SFs have the H135s bigger brother, the H145, again for the small footprint it has. With SFs we are not talking about moving large numbers of troops, it is about small teams. As long as we can fast rope from the EC135s they could be suitable for a response (the 2 AC and the 2 GASU together).

    This is not to saw that the airlift capacity of the AC should not be expanded but until some more fundamental organisational issues are sorted it would be a waste of resources.
    +1 EU fighter

    The first responders will likely be unarmed Gardai. The next will be RSU (ASU in Dublin). Then the ERU (possibility the ERU could respond quicker if in the area).

    Where ARW would fit into the mix would depend on the Gardai.

    There is a need for (proper) medium lift helos but no point until manning in AC is sorted

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  40. #25
    C/S CTU's Avatar
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    Would it not make more sense for the garda to replace the defender with a EC145, that way they could at least deploy an ERU team by air outside Dublin.
    As for the ARW, how long did it take SAS "Blue Thunder" to land on London Bridge after the attack
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed! I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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