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  1. #26
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    They need a dedicated helicopter just for training alone, regardless of actual operational use. They should have a 135 on their own pad, ready to go, at their timetable, not the Don's. All it would take is to rotate a handful of pilots and engineers on a shift basis, without breastfeeding on the Don's bureaucracy. As for manpower, all you have to do is look at the GASU operation; the aircraft are serviced by civvies (invariably exers) and have a higher availability than Don aircraft. If you strip out the Military bureacracy, you can run an aircraft with a few people and deliver a good service and this knowledge is not new to the Don. You don't need an organisation top heavy with Flight Sergeants and duty drivers and all sorts of bottle washers. This is not new or original thinking; as long as Special Forces have existed, it has been shown that they should have their own integral airlift/road vehicles/sealift instead of having to depend on a main force. that's the whole point of being able to react fast when needed.

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  3. #27
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Would it not make more sense for the garda to replace the defender with a EC145, that way they could at least deploy an ERU team by air outside Dublin.
    As for the ARW, how long did it take SAS "Blue Thunder" to land on London Bridge after the attack
    Possibly but the Defenders role is more covert. The Defender replacement is looking at tactical team transport as a possibility (which to me doesn’t make a lot of sense unless an incident is very close to an airport.

    GASU need smaller cheaper to operate helos (ie EC135) for the vast majority of their work. If they need a team transported they can call on a AW139. And then we are back to square one, either way it is going to be AC piloted.

  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Possibly but the Defenders role is more covert. The Defender replacement is looking at tactical team transport as a possibility (which to me doesn’t make a lot of sense unless an incident is very close to an airport.

    GASU need smaller cheaper to operate helos (ie EC135) for the vast majority of their work. If they need a team transported they can call on a AW139. And then we are back to square one, either way it is going to be AC piloted.
    Yet the Met replaced their three Squirrels with EC145s to give them the option of deploying a SFO team by helicopter, of course they did have the Olympics in mind, but then again the PSNI also use two EC145 as well as one EC135.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed! I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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  6. #29
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    PSNI needed a troop lifting capability for the border.

    Cause there's peace and all that.

    Re the Defender...i was never in the Garda but I'd imagine it's role requires it to loiter for hours on end facilitating downlinks for various types of electronic gadgetry.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  8. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Lets be honest, 2 NH90 or equivalent Medium lift helis and 2 crews are far more capable than 6 AW139 requiring 6 crews - if you need to lift a platoon's worth of rangers.
    A missed opportunity I believe was not purchasing the 9 Cougars the Dutch had surplus, I believe possibly Chile got them for €81 million. Medium lift, proven and capable.

  9. #31
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Or move the ARW to Baldonnel.
    Never gonna happen.About as likely as SAS moving to London
    Moving the duty team to Baldonnel is the obvious answer - firstly its easier than moving the positively glacier-esque AC to the Curragh
    The duty team don't just sit around the Compound waiting on a a call.They are training.Usually NOT in Baldonnel. Having the lads sitting around the 'Don scratching their asses when they could be training in the DFTC in their purpose made facilities would be like keeping a Ferrari in a garage.

    secondly it's closer to where the action is likely to be, and thirdly it would add weight to the concept of using Baldonnel as Ireland's designated 'hijack' destination, much like Stansted is in the UK.
    Flight time from the 'Don to the DFTC is minutes or they can blue light it from the DFTC to the 'Don. Ireland has a designated Airport for Hijackings(MOD:Don't ask,OPSEC. if you can figure it out don't post.) and it's not the 'Don.Probably due to the size of it's runway vis a vis potential Hijacked Aircraft size.
    A more fundamental problem however remains, that with 6AW-139's, you simply don't, and can't, have enough helicopters at 10 mins NTM, 24/365, to move a CT team and its support (EOD), to where it needs to be.

    Beginning, middle, end. Without addressing that, there's an element of window dressing about where you put them...
    Agreed.Again.Why? Because EAS is taking up so many airframes and crews.Add to that birds down for maintenance and what are we left with? Wadi EAS and we get our birds back and they can be retasked. But the pilots love EAS so that's like Turkeys voting for Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The fundamental issue is lack of AC personnel
    Again Wadi EAS and get the crews detached to Athlone back.Look at that we just upped our numbers in a heartbeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Lets be honest, 2 NH90 or equivalent Medium lift helis and 2 crews are far more capable than 6 AW139 requiring 6 crews - if you need to lift a platoon's worth of rangers.
    Don't forget ARW platoons and teams are not the same size of say an Infantry Platoon/sections.They can do more with less.

    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Would it not make more sense for the garda to replace the defender with a EC145, that way they could at least deploy an ERU team by air outside Dublin.
    As for the ARW, how long did it take SAS "Blue Thunder" to land on London Bridge after the attack
    No.They already can deploy ERU outside of Dublin by Air using AC AW139's and have done so operationally before. AC Helos don't have to land to deploy ARW. They can fastrope or Abseil.Hell they can even Helocast into the feckin Liffey if push comes to shove.
    ERU and Negotiater deploy from Irish Aircorps AW-139..jpg
    Untitled.png
    Last edited by apod; 12th December 2017 at 21:58.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  11. #32
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    The SAS are in London and are on a timed notice to move.

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  13. #33
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craghopper View Post
    The SAS are in London and are on a timed notice to move.
    and have A109s

  14. #34
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    And are embedded in joint teams with the Mets CT SFO's...

    Which, realistically, is the future pattern - which then blows the 'unarmed, armed, specialist, then finally SF' chain of escalation out of the window.

    Unless, of course, having doctrine that's 40 years behind everyone else's isn't just happenstance but deliberate policy...

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  16. #35
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    And are embedded in joint teams with the Mets CT SFO's...

    Which, realistically, is the future pattern - which then blows the 'unarmed, armed, specialist, then finally SF' chain of escalation out of the window.

    Unless, of course, having doctrine that's 40 years behind everyone else's isn't just happenstance but deliberate policy...
    Depends on the reason why they are embedded

    The legal situation is also different

  17. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Depends on the reason why they are embedded

    The legal situation is also different
    Or. the cops are trying to keep the gig all to themselves

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  19. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Depends on the reason why they are embedded...
    What reasons do you think the Met and home office mighthave thought that having joint SFO/SF teams was a good idea DeV?

    So tell me about the legal situation then, tell me about the insurmountable legal and constitutional hurdles that would prevent the Gardai, Justice and Defence proposing joint teams and cabinet approving it?

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  21. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    What reasons do you think the Met and home office mighthave thought that having joint SFO/SF teams was a good idea DeV?

    So tell me about the legal situation then, tell me about the insurmountable legal and constitutional hurdles that would prevent the Gardai, Justice and Defence proposing joint teams and cabinet approving it?
    There are very few legal restrictions that aren’t insurmountable apart from funds of the highest possible courts (even the Constitution can be amended).

    We are talking about different legal jurisdictions with different laws.

    In Irish experience it was found to be a very very bad idea.

    I’m not going into restricted operational documents.

    Just because the Met/SAS do it in London doesn’t mean everyone else should or is allowed
    Last edited by DeV; 13th December 2017 at 19:29.

  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Or. the cops are trying to keep the gig all to themselves
    Amazing how "Senior Gardai" came out and attacked the DF response times etc to a terrorist incident a couple of days after the DF Exercise.
    Nothing at all to do with "Defence sources" highlighting the lack of AGS presence at the CMTA course in the DFTC.

    When the SHTF it wont be the terrorists that kill the most people but inter-agency rivalry,politics and grandstanding.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    In Irish experience it was found to be a very very bad idea
    That was then.Poorly trained Gardai and Soldiers(by todays standards).
    This is now. ARW and ERU are very different now to the early 80's and train together constantly.

    Having said that ERU always have one eye on the European convention on human rights when they operate. ARW when deployed would have a a lot more "freedom" given to them by Government(COC: OC ARW straight to the minister).That's why they are the last resort.If they get called in the bad guys would be lucky to leave in cuffs and not body bags.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  25. #41
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    That was then.Poorly trained Gardai and Soldiers(by todays standards).
    This is now. ARW and ERU are very different now to the early 80's and train together constantly.

    Having said that ERU always have one eye on the European convention on human rights when they operate. ARW when deployed would have a a lot more "freedom" given to them by Government(COC: OC ARW straight to the minister).That's why they are the last resort.If they get called in the bad guys would be lucky to leave in cuffs and not body bags.
    Again I can only give perspective from a UK viewpoint...but I'd be pretty certain that the ARW and by extension the Irish Government are still accountable to ECHR legislation.

    The tactics used by the ARW to 'resolve' a situation may differ from those of the Garda, but they're still answerable to the courts.

    The preferred option in Northern Ireland was to use the RUC HMSU in anti-terrorist ops...but on more than a few occasions the SAS were deployed almost always with fatal results for the erstwhile 'freedom' fighters. But even the SAS are accountable...see the numerous court cases being dragged up in our courts.

    Of course...if the courts are satisfied that there was no other way to deal with the threat than by killing said ****s...alls fair in love and terrorism.

    So I'm guessing the ARW get deployed in circumstances where the ERU is out of its depth...as was the case with the HMSU...awesome as they are...on quite a few occasions.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  27. #42
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    the current use of SF (its a joint SAS/SBS pool) to supplement civilian police in the UK has two purposes - firstly the traditional 'to weigh in when the rozzers are out of their depth' role, but arguably more importantly given the massive strides the Police CT SFO's have made in capability to take on both active shooter and hostage rescue tasks, its to just massively increase the number of very highly trained, heavily armed people available to respond to these events.

    this, i think, is being lost in this debate - all this stuff about who turns up and when utterly fails to grasp that these events last 10 minutes, if your people aren't there by then, these geezers will just drive off. or have killed a hundred people...

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  29. #43
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    Again I can only give perspective from a UK viewpoint...but I'd be pretty certain that the ARW and by extension the Irish Government are still accountable to ECHR legislation.

    The tactics used by the ARW to 'resolve' a situation may differ from those of the Garda, but they're still answerable to the courts.

    The preferred option in Northern Ireland was to use the RUC HMSU in anti-terrorist ops...but on more than a few occasions the SAS were deployed almost always with fatal results for the erstwhile 'freedom' fighters. But even the SAS are accountable...see the numerous court cases being dragged up in our courts.

    Of course...if the courts are satisfied that there was no other way to deal with the threat than by killing said ****s...alls fair in love and terrorism.

    So I'm guessing the ARW get deployed in circumstances where the ERU is out of its depth...as was the case with the HMSU...awesome as they are...on quite a few occasions.
    Don't get me wrong ARW are not some sort of death squad, and they do have rules to follow same as the rest of us.But,and it's a big but,the norm for ARW response is for "control" of a situation to be signed over from civil control to military control and back again when " resolved ".This is in effect martial law for the duration of the response. We all know what that means.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law

    Now the civil /military control procedures may be different now due to the fast response required in an MTA situation but if you look at the scenarios exercised last week the deployment at Dublin Port didn't include Armed Gardai. It was a Military only show.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  31. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Depends on the reason why they are embedded

    The legal situation is also different
    They are imbedded for the reason we're talking on this subject. I was talking to the guys from the Met who came over for the C-CMTA course . They have negated the need to hand over to the military by signing an agreement that's in their statute books. Very interesting conversation and very interesting brief they gave.

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  33. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    the current use of SF (its a joint SAS/SBS pool) to supplement civilian police in the UK has two purposes - firstly the traditional 'to weigh in when the rozzers are out of their depth' role, but arguably more importantly given the massive strides the Police CT SFO's have made in capability to take on both active shooter and hostage rescue tasks, its to just massively increase the number of very highly trained, heavily armed people available to respond to these events.

    this, i think, is being lost in this debate - all this stuff about who turns up and when utterly fails to grasp that these events last 10 minutes, if your people aren't there by then, these geezers will just drive off. or have killed a hundred people...
    I'd throw the SRR in there too

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  35. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    the current use of SF (its a joint SAS/SBS pool) to supplement civilian police in the UK has two purposes - firstly the traditional 'to weigh in when the rozzers are out of their depth' role, but arguably more importantly given the massive strides the Police CT SFO's have made in capability to take on both active shooter and hostage rescue tasks, its to just massively increase the number of very highly trained, heavily armed people available to respond to these events.

    this, i think, is being lost in this debate - all this stuff about who turns up and when utterly fails to grasp that these events last 10 minutes, if your people aren't there by then, these geezers will just drive off. or have killed a hundred people...
    Agreed though it depends on the type of scenario you are facing.

    In the London Bridge type of incident the responders are very much reactive...so yes multiple callsigns to deal with the threat and contain the scene.

    If you are looking at a proactive intelligence led operation a lot of effort will be put into looking at who is best placed to neutralise the threat. Is it AFOs...or military?

    To use a Northern Ireland analogy...the Police never had the manpower or firepower to take on an armoured lorry with a DShK mounted on the rear. The Army did.

    They could also bring to bear manpower and kit which the police couldn't...someone mentioned the SRR...

    I realise apod the situation may be different in Ireland I'm simply giving my perspective from my experience.

    Interesting times and an interesting debate.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  37. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    That was then.Poorly trained Gardai and Soldiers(by todays standards).
    This is now. ARW and ERU are very different now to the early 80's and train together constantly.

    Having said that ERU always have one eye on the European convention on human rights when they operate. ARW when deployed would have a a lot more "freedom" given to them by Government(COC: OC ARW straight to the minister).That's why they are the last resort.If they get called in the bad guys would be lucky to leave in cuffs and not body bags.
    You are so full of it.

    ARW CO reports directly to DCOS Ops, not to the minister.

    "Train together all the time" - yeah sure. Ask the ARW what they think of the ERU doing fast roping exercises. Chequered to say the least.

    Seriously, you talk some amount of shite. Stick to what you know.

  38. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    You are so full of it.

    ARW CO reports directly to DCOS Ops, not to the minister.

    "Train together all the time" - yeah sure. Ask the ARW what they think of the ERU doing fast roping exercises. Chequered to say the least.

    Seriously, you talk some amount of shite. Stick to what you know.
    Oh. Them's fightin words.
    First off buddy you don't know me from adam and you sure as hell don't know what I know or don't know.But hey with the massive tally of all 16 posts in 10 months of membership I will humor you.

    1/ OC ARW reports directly to the MINISTER.That is the chain of COMMAND. The CoS and both DCoS's COMMAND nothing.Nor does the ACoS. In terms of COMMAND OC ARW has the same status as a GoC or FOCNS. GoC DFTC has oversight of the Wings Admin and discipline but he has no Operational COMMAND over them.
    2/ If ARW are operating in a particular Brigade the Minister will place them under Tactical Command of the Relevant GoC as advised by the DCoS Ops.this is for legal reasons and to shield the OC ARW from having to deal with the media etc and subsequent enquiries.
    3/ If you THINK you know better please feel free to brief the Brigade legal officer who briefed my Units BN CO,all his officers,SNCO's and Sgts on COMMAND only last week.A brief I was at personally. So yes I think I know what I am talking about.Unless of course you want to call the GoC's Chief legal advisor a liar too?

    So who is full of shite now?
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  40. #49
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Folks please desist from the name calling - this is not that thread . Take it to PM and be civil.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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