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  • Sick Leave PQs ( Split out )

    Some interesting numbers on Days Sick Leave taken RDF do not really figure in these numbers http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas....nt#WRNNNN02925
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  • #2
    Originally posted by trellheim View Post
    Some interesting numbers on Days Sick Leave taken RDF do not really figure in these numbers http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas....nt#WRNNNN02925
    A rapidly rising rate of sick leave over the last 3 years, at a time when the organisation has been losing numbers is another indication that the 2012 reorg was ineffective and coupled with the strains placed on many with the changed promotion systems and generally chronically low morale is a sad reflection of the status of our organisation at the end of 2017. Sickleave is up from 66000 in 2015 to being on trend for circa 80000 in 2017, a 20% increase, placing yet more strain on units.

    Our much hailed hero that some claimed was going to be the next D. Earley has been amongst the least effective leaders our organisation has seen in decades! The unwillingness or inability to address the issue has been flagged at various levels going right back to his time as DCos Sp. The current MoS has no grasp on the reality of the situation. There was a complete unwillingness to recognise the problems in 2014 and 2015 when the haemorrhage was being flagged and could have been addressed. When brigades a losing the equivalent of a platoon a month you know something is rotten somewhere.

    You are left with a crazy scenario where they are recruiting hundreds of recruits and cadets to stem the flow but without the middle management in the units to supervise, nurture and develop these new inductees we are about to face another challenge. Units do not have enough Sgts, experienced Lts or Capts to do the real training when the new pers arrive in units. There are Bns that have 1 Capt and maybe 3 Lts (commissioned in 2016 -17) as their total YO strength. Units are overstrength in Ptes in many cases because the magic number of 9500 gets bandied about. Promotions from the ongoing NCO promotion system will help fill NCO appointments ... maybe or will further antagonise the situation where NCOs with 15 -30 years service are uprooted without support and dropped into a unit 200km away.

    The increase in sick leave is symptomatic of an organisation that has lost its number 1 asset - the goodwill of its employees! How can it be resolved? I think we are long gone past the point of a quick resolution!

    The 700+ new enlistees that Kehoe bangs on about as if it was a panacea will be a HR nightmare for the next few years trying to upskill and qualify these and then find overseas appointments for will be challenging to say the least!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
      A rapidly rising rate of sick leave over the last 3 years, at a time when the organisation has been losing numbers is another indication that the 2012 reorg was ineffective and coupled with the strains placed on many with the changed promotion systems and generally chronically low morale is a sad reflection of the status of our organisation at the end of 2017. Sickleave is up from 66000 in 2015 to being on trend for circa 80000 in 2017, a 20% increase, placing yet more strain on units.

      Our much hailed hero that some claimed was going to be the next D. Earley has been amongst the least effective leaders our organisation has seen in decades! The unwillingness or inability to address the issue has been flagged at various levels going right back to his time as DCos Sp. The current MoS has no grasp on the reality of the situation. There was a complete unwillingness to recognise the problems in 2014 and 2015 when the haemorrhage was being flagged and could have been addressed. When brigades a losing the equivalent of a platoon a month you know something is rotten somewhere.

      You are left with a crazy scenario where they are recruiting hundreds of recruits and cadets to stem the flow but without the middle management in the units to supervise, nurture and develop these new inductees we are about to face another challenge. Units do not have enough Sgts, experienced Lts or Capts to do the real training when the new pers arrive in units. There are Bns that have 1 Capt and maybe 3 Lts (commissioned in 2016 -17) as their total YO strength. Units are overstrength in Ptes in many cases because the magic number of 9500 gets bandied about. Promotions from the ongoing NCO promotion system will help fill NCO appointments ... maybe or will further antagonise the situation where NCOs with 15 -30 years service are uprooted without support and dropped into a unit 200km away.

      The increase in sick leave is symptomatic of an organisation that has lost its number 1 asset - the goodwill of its employees! How can it be resolved? I think we are long gone past the point of a quick resolution!

      The 700+ new enlistees that Kehoe bangs on about as if it was a panacea will be a HR nightmare for the next few years trying to upskill and qualify these and then find overseas appointments for will be challenging to say the least!!
      The most honest and accurate post on this issue I have read in a long time.Well said.
      Those of us who have stuck around.usually due to financial/family circumstances are being flaaahd from having to take up the slack for the people that are missing. as a result people are getting burnt out and the taskings don't let up.They just keep on mounting up.
      If our best asset is our people,then I put it that we are abusing and losing that asset.No amount of new equipment or recruits will alleviate that. We need to look after those we have and back them up as quickly as possible.
      Mend the cracks in the dam and then refill the reservoir .Unless we do the former then the latter is a waste of time.
      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wonder how much of this is USL
        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by trellheim View Post
          Wonder how much of this is USL
          Quite a bit I dare say.The redbook also is reaching epidemic proportions and for good reason.
          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

          Comment


          • #6
            epidemic
            pun intended ?
            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

            Comment


            • #7
              As far back as 2006, I was hearing of units that had a kitty to which they all contributed weekly. This was to cover fines for those who were inevitably charged with being AWOL, such was the frequency.

              As for the criticism of the CoS, none are more disappointed than those in Haulbowline who supported his career progression all the while defending him from opposition by those wearing green uniforms. However they all found that as soon he moved to Newbridge, those who supported him were very quickly forgotten. (I count myself among that number). However much of his failure at appointment comes from the structure of HQ. As FOCNS he was immersed in all activities of the NS, and surrounded himself with some of the best staff the NS had to offer. However he is last in the door at DFHQ. He is detached geographically and physically from the defence forces. His staff, for the most part have served their career at DFHQ and have no interest in changing the status quo . Combine the layers of civil servants whose only interest is on working up their flexi and completing the Times crossword before tea break, hoping to return to find an email offerring them promotion to a more cushy civil service number in a department with overseas perks, all the while using layers of beaurocracy to prevent the Defence forces doing anything to change the comfort of their effortless job. With people like this screening his visitors, it is surprising that anyone succeeds in meeting the general staff at all.
              The last year or so has seen the CoS focus his energy on seeking promotion (unsuccessfully, inevitably) out of the DF to a european military post away from the Department of Defence and its mandarins, and to be fair who would blame him. Unfortunately during this time the DF has reached a peak crisis in Morale , due to poor pay and conditions. His job should have been to alert the Minister to this crisis, but the minister has deputised all his duties to the Minister for state, who unfortunately has been the worst for some time. His only interest has been photo ops. He dragged ship, crew and family to Rosslare on a weekend for a medal parade so (a) he wouldnt have to leave his constituency and (b) the event would make him look good in local news to his voters in Wexico, who otherwise would have no awareness of the Defence Forces, other than the Fishing families of Kilmore Quay who believe the Purpose of the Navy is to prevent them from going about their poaching business. His responses to PQs have displayed a complete ignorance of his portfolio.

              So with the perfect storm of Absent minister, Incompetent Minister for state and disillusioned CoS, what is the solution?
              Last edited by Bravo20; 30 December 2017, 18:30.
              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

              Comment


              • #8
                what is the solution?
                well its not posting unhelpful rants that belong elsewhere. Open another thread somewhere if you want a rant.
                "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                  Some interesting numbers on Days Sick Leave taken RDF do not really figure in these numbers http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas....nt#WRNNNN02925
                  More figures from 2006

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sick rates in civil service 2012

                    Overall, an average of 4 per cent of working days in the public sector were lost due to sick leave in 2012.

                    The rate is highest in the Garda (5.3 per cent), the health sector (4.8 per cent), local government (4.7 per cent) and the Civil Service (4.6 per cent).

                    Lowest rates

                    It is lowest among the Defence Forces (2.6 per cent) and education (3 per cent for primary teachers and 3.4 per cent for secondary teachers).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                      well its not posting unhelpful rants that belong elsewhere. Open another thread somewhere if you want a rant.
                      Is not the purpose of this whole site to rant?
                      I was replying directly to post 3082. What is your problem with that?
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Do not discuss moderation on the thread. NO further warnings.
                        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                          Sick rates in civil service 2012

                          Overall, an average of 4 per cent of working days in the public sector were lost due to sick leave in 2012.

                          The rate is highest in the Garda (5.3 per cent), the health sector (4.8 per cent), local government (4.7 per cent) and the Civil Service (4.6 per cent).

                          Lowest rates

                          It is lowest among the Defence Forces (2.6 per cent) and education (3 per cent for primary teachers and 3.4 per cent for secondary teachers).

                          https://www.irishtimes.com/news/heal...89605?mode=amp
                          Based on 9000 personnel all working 365 days a year, the figure for 2016 has come down to 2.2%

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            As far back as 2006, I was hearing of units that had a kitty to which they all contributed weekly. This was to cover fines for those who were inevitably charged with being AWOL, such was the frequency.

                            As for the criticism of the CoS, none are more disappointed than those in Haulbowline who supported his career progression all the while defending him from opposition by those wearing green uniforms. However they all found that as soon he moved to Newbridge, those who supported him were very quickly forgotten. (I count myself among that number). However much of his failure at appointment comes from the structure of HQ. As FOCNS he was immersed in all activities of the NS, and surrounded himself with some of the best staff the NS had to offer. However he is last in the door at DFHQ. He is detached geographically and physically from the defence forces. His staff, for the most part have served their career at DFHQ and have no interest in changing the status quo . Combine the layers of civil servants whose only interest is on working up their flexi and completing the Times crossword before tea break, hoping to return to find an email offerring them promotion to a more cushy civil service number in a department with overseas perks, all the while using layers of beaurocracy to prevent the Defence forces doing anything to change the comfort of their effortless job. With people like this screening his visitors, it is surprising that anyone succeeds in meeting the general staff at all.
                            The last year or so has seen the CoS focus his energy on seeking promotion (unsuccessfully, inevitably) out of the DF to a european military post away from the Department of Defence and its mandarins, and to be fair who would blame him. Unfortunately during this time the DF has reached a peak crisis in Morale , due to poor pay and conditions. His job should have been to alert the Minister to this crisis, but the minister has deputised all his duties to the Minister for state, who unfortunately has been the worst for some time. His only interest has been photo ops. He dragged ship, crew and family to Rosslare on a weekend for a medal parade so (a) he wouldnt have to leave his constituency and (b) the event would make him look good in local news to his voters in Wexico, who otherwise would have no awareness of the Defence Forces, other than the Fishing families of Kilmore Quay who believe the Purpose of the Navy is to prevent them from going about their poaching business. His responses to PQs have displayed a complete ignorance of his portfolio.

                            So with the perfect storm of Absent minister, Incompetent Minister for state and disillusioned CoS, what is the solution?
                            The current COS inherited many of these issues, some of which should have been tackled in the early 00s (if not decades before).

                            He has a good vision of transforming the DF in a number of areas. The issue is the people are already over worked which is making the working conditions worse.

                            Not sure what percentage of staff have turned over in DoD which has a direct impact on the policy work. Not necessarily a bad thing btw.

                            I completely agree with regard to the MoS but he can only go on the information provided by DoD and DFHQ.
                            Last edited by Bravo20; 30 December 2017, 18:31.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This thread now stands on its own two feet. Please remain on-topic, i.e discussion of Sick Leave. Merits of the COS and the Minister/Minister of State are a far wider topic and one everyone has their own opinion on - so if you want to talk about them, do it in another thread or we will be on a hamster wheel that goes everywhere

                              One question I would have is why PDFORRA and RACO have not kicked up over these numbers
                              Last edited by trellheim; 30 December 2017, 19:25.
                              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                              Comment

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