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Establishment versus reality.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
    The establishment does not seem to have changed in the NS since we had 4 p20 type, 1 hpv , 2 cpv and 1 lpv . If we are to replace the cpv type with opv then surely the establishment needs to follow? These ships will be spending more time at sea and having at least one vessel overseas seems to be the norm for future planning. Add to the mix a larger ship to replace the hpv and number are well below what is required. In 1984 bringing Eithne into service with her crew of 85 all ranks saw a recruitment drive to increase the establishment by 200.
    The establishment was amended to more or less match the ECF sometime between 2011 and 2014 of there abouts

    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Manning ships is a complex problem under many headings. The rule of thumb was it took three crew equivalents to keep one crew at sea .
    PWC allowed 1.5 crews per ship

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    • #17
      Originally posted by trellheim View Post
      More likely than ECF restrictions being eased, anyway. DPER love the DF CoS they follow orders.
      Pun intended??

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      • #18
        Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
        As you brought up the subject can you provide the details.
        Thanks.


        Based on these figures (not sure how old the one I had was but they were 2017)

        Lt (NS) is 45% short of establishment
        PO is 31% short of establishment
        LS is 58% short of establishment
        Seamen is 22% short of establishment

        The SNCOs vacancies have been more or less filled
        Last edited by DeV; 22 January 2018, 14:46.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by restless View Post
          and maybe relaxing the very stringent eyesight requirements
          The hearing test is probably a bigger issue TBH.
          "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
          Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
          Illegitimi non carborundum

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          • #20
            Originally posted by restless View Post
            and maybe relaxing the very stringent eyesight requirements
            Hard to be on watch, if ya can't see
            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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            • #21
              Originally posted by HavocIRL View Post
              Bring back the lash
              Press gangs. Head out for a few pints on a Saturday in Cobh. wake up next morning in the Med

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              • #22
                Press gangs. Head out for a few pints on a Saturday in Cobh. wake up next morning in the Med
                Isnt that what happens anyway
                "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  The establishment was amended to more or less match the ECF sometime between 2011 and 2014 of there abouts
                  The current version of CS4 more or less has remained unchanged since 01 Dec 2012. There were some small adjustments in 2014 to tweek things a tiny bit but with no changes to overall figures.

                  The ECF was submitted to DPER by the same element that worked on CS4. One was based on the other but both were from the same origin.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                    The establishment does not seem to have changed in the NS since we had 4 p20 type, 1 hpv , 2 cpv and 1 lpv . If we are to replace the cpv type with opv then surely the establishment needs to follow? These ships will be spending more time at sea and having at least one vessel overseas seems to be the norm for future planning. Add to the mix a larger ship to replace the hpv and number are well below what is required. In 1984 bringing Eithne into service with her crew of 85 all ranks saw a recruitment drive to increase the establishment by 200.
                    Between Jan 1985 and April 1986 170 recruits had passed out plus a class of Direct Entry L/ Hands, mostly ERAs, the last cadet class had commissioned in early 1985 but recruitment all but died over the next two years with no cadets taken on until 1988 and one recruit class The NS had lost Spike as a recruit training centre and to say it was bedlam in Haulbowline is an understatement.

                    Time have changed and there should be at least two recruits classes processed annually
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      The establishment was amended to more or less match the ECF sometime between 2011 and 2014 of there abouts

                      PWC allowed 1.5 crews per ship
                      PWC got it badly wrong!

                      3 is probably a bit excessive but 2 crews per ship would be adequate


                      I cannot see why anyone would join the NS. The life is much harsher with far more limitations put on having a real life. Relationships suffer from being away all the time. I have a lot of respect for those that can enjoy that work / life balance
                      Without getting too philosophical about it, you really don't know why you did it until after you've left and realise what you've left behind,bonds made for life, You'll hate a lot of it, love some of it, but you'll never forget it... thats for sure. Its not for everyone, but you won't know unless you try.

                      If you are looking for normal..regular hours, good pay and conditions... this ain't it !... but fcuk it.... after 5 years you'll still have the rest of your life to catch up with the guy who went to college and id the same shit day in day out.....and never felt the buzz that only the sea will give you!

                      try it.. you might even like it...if even only for a short time
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                        As you brought up the subject can you provide the details.
                        Thanks.
                        Your welcome

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          You're *
                          Still waiting for naval numbers that you were quoting.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            You're *
                            Still waiting for naval numbers that you were quoting.
                            The figures I originally quoted were the strength as at 30 Sept 17 and are available here:


                            Just a month later the strength (see above) dropped dramatically:



                            The establishment is in the 2nd link and is unchanged.

                            The 2nd link is the more up to date figure of the 2, it shows how the situation is even worse than the one I quoted for Seamen and JNCOs, the SNCO ranks have been sorted more or less - but as you said (and I agreed) a short fall there wouldn’t really effect ships or maintenance
                            Last edited by DeV; 23 January 2018, 13:06.

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                            • #29
                              Looking at ECF introduction in 2011/12 the approved sanction for all the PDF was 70% for strengths shown in DF Establishments CS4. Key tech jobs on ships cannot live on 1.5 ratios, if you have to relieve singletons very often the relief is done by a person filling a shore side vacancy. I would press strongly for a 2 ratio but still think we need a better ratio to cover career courses and realistic sea shore ratios. The current strategy still does not reach Full Establishment so it is important that the allowed figures are being met in all departments with clear avenues of career/trade development. Wave type recruiting with succeeding training shut downs is totally unprofessional and leads to pissed off training by pissed off staff.

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                              • #30
                                Really ? I thought we were working to a fully filled Establishment of 9500p + 4169r . There will be 800 PDF recruits this years - it was in the dail PQs I put up
                                "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                                "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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