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  1. #26
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Three staple Irish replies

    1. Invoke begrudgery

    2. Its not how the system works

    3. Just be grateful someone got it


    For me its not begrudgeray by any means. Well done to the lads.

    The system works like that because we allow the system to work like that

    I would be grateful and silent if everyone who deserved the award got the recognition.

    Its not too long ago that people said about the Jadotville lads that

    This is how the system works, they should be grateful for what they got and too think outside that scope is begrudgeray.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  2. #27
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    There will be another medal issued to a now retired rating

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  4. #28
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    As an aside is this the first time a retired serviceman has been in receipt of a commendation? Why the delay?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    As an aside is this the first time a retired serviceman has been in receipt of a commendation? Why the delay?
    No there have been a few medics over the years.

    I am told that this man doesn't want a parade. It will be a low key affair

  6. #30
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Nope....

    If you look at the whole things its a fcuking farce, the op was ten years ago !

    The Statute of limitations on the award of a DSM is 6 years..

    The precedent for the award in actions of this nature actually goes back to the CoS from his action in the' Brime' affair.. at least he was in the vicinity at the time!

    There are NS people former and serving who did far more that had a greater impact on peoples lives who got absolutely no recognition.

    To my mind this award was made to justify awards to others!

    And even on the day they got it wrong dress wise.....

    No medals worn by those having awards made!!!!

    People in point of contact deserve the medals, not those who put them there!!!
    Just visiting

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  8. #31
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I shit myself at the thought of crossing a body of water- I couldn't even estimate the bravery of lads getting into a small speed boat in rough seas that measure 6 metres.
    Try it back in my day when the boats were smaller
    and we didn't have a fraction of the life saving gear in the event of ending up in the water.

    Mick Quinn and Paul Kellet found out this week 29 years ago while to attempting a rescue in Co. Cork

    Mick lost his life and Paul pushed survival to the limits.

    I knew Mick Quinn, used to have a few pints with the guy on occasion, nothing out of the ordinary, just did his job..

    They got DSMs, now how does their sacrifice equate with others putting crews in the face of danger.

    Lt Cdr Noel Goulding didn't get a DSM for losing a Boat Cox'n on the night , nor was he put forward for one. But his actions in putting a boat in the water were no less notable than any other skipper who has.
    Just visiting

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  10. #32
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    http://source.southdublinlibraries.i..._Citations.pdf

    Before this even get more emotive, we don’t know what the citations say (ie exactly why they were awarded), we also weren’t there when most of these were awarded so we don’t know if they were deserved (even the COS ones we didn’t see everything they saw, the unseen challenges faced etc).

    All we know is what was in the media

    I’d encourage all to have a look at the link and read them start to finish. DSMs have been awarded what I would consider some very strange reasons in the past. I wasn’t there so I can’t judge
    Last edited by DeV; 4th February 2018 at 10:20.

  11. #33
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    [QUOTE=hptmurphy;457454]Try it back in my day when the boats were smaller
    and we didn't have a fraction of the life saving gear in the event of ending up in the water.

    There was an interesting study done some years ago, by either the Canadian or US Coastguards, on the use of RHIB craft in breaking water near shelving beaches or back wash from rocky areas. Water around the boat gets highly aerated and steering is lost due to propellers losing grip in solid water. The answer in such cases is complicated and would require standoff and helicopter procedures with the casualty assisting in the rescue.
    It can be a similar reason why you must never swim in gaseous water such as in quarries where water loses buoyancy.

  12. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    http://source.southdublinlibraries.i..._Citations.pdf

    Before this even get more emotive, we don’t know what the citations say (ie exactly why they were awarded), we also weren’t there when most of these were awarded so we don’t know if they were deserved (even the COS ones we didn’t see everything they saw, the unseen challenges faced etc).

    All we know is what was in the media

    I’d encourage all to have a look at the link and read them start to finish. DSMs have been awarded what I would consider some very strange reasons in the past. I wasn’t there so I can’t judge
    So many awarded for being the officer in charge.. of something.

    So many coxwains also awarded medals for their boat handling skills during an anti drugs operation.
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  13. #35
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    So many awarded for being the officer in charge.. of something.

    So many coxwains also awarded medals for their boat handling skills during an anti drugs operation.
    Look at all of them, there is all sorts - not belittling them but on the face of it some of them look like they got out of bed in the morning (and I’m not talking about the COS & FC ones) but is wasn’t there so I can’t say they weren’t deserved. I’m sure they made a difference.

    According to this thread the RHIB Cox’n has been awarded a DSM too

  14. #36
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    In honour of our COS they've renamed the DSM the "Dashingly supervising the men" award, maybe distinguished supervising medal?
    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  15. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    According to this thread the RHIB Cox’n has been awarded a DSM too
    There we go. premature reaction (sic). He was obviously recommended. Delighted for all coxswains without whom nobody gets to where they need to be.

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  17. #38
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    http://source.southdublinlibraries.i..._Citations.pdf

    Before this even get more emotive, we don’t know what the citations say (ie exactly why they were awarded), we also weren’t there when most of these were awarded so we don’t know if they were deserved (even the COS ones we didn’t see everything they saw, the unseen challenges faced etc).

    All we know is what was in the media

    I’d encourage all to have a look at the link and read them start to finish. DSMs have been awarded what I would consider some very strange reasons in the past. I wasn’t there so I can’t judge
    I would disagree with you mate,

    Also there is a lot of exers on social media commenting on this.

    The main thrust is that if there is a medal to be awarded the Officer gets it (The border fox) or rather if there is medals to be awarded the Officer gets one and then blah...

    A previous poster referred to the helicopter lads- in most instance the entire crew got the medal because the pilots regardless of rank and with balls bigger than Sexton got the crewmen into position and the crew men with balls bigger than Jupiter did the rescues, hence the entire crew and let this be clear, that's the way it should be, the entire team gets it or no one gets it.

    A question was also raised on social media- this citation is for an operation 10 years ago. The person who would have been in the chain of command for the recommending of these awards is (???) Markie PR the photogenic COS who has a DSM because he was in charge of a big ship.

    Its interesting to note that Markie PR's vessel was crewed by men and women who carried out some audacious operations that saved lives and captured smugglers all at the risk of their own life and f uck all pay or thanks.

    Its now normal that no matter how crap a COS/ FC is (McCann, Shreenan, Pat Nashville etc) they are going to get the DSM, is this the start of a normalisation process that all Naval Officers in charge of an operation will get an award.

    On a lighter note- Its great to see Leinster beating France yesterday. There is no doubt Munster have 1 or 2 fairly acceptable players but the rest are flotsam (Naval talk) and therefore not pulling their weight. Is it not time to disband Munster and give the money to the other 3 provinces.

    Just in case you think this is an anti Munster rant, I am calling for the same thing for Mayo.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  18. #39
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    All munsters best players now play in france.
    As for Rapester..
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  19. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    As an aside is this the first time a retired serviceman has been in receipt of a commendation? Why the delay?
    Finger In Posterior Syndrome?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  20. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Finger In Posterior Syndrome?
    It depends on interpretation and if recommendations have been made by those reporting or submitting findings. Late awards are a feature such as Jadotville , Fire on Cliona , and " Dances with Waves ". You can be sure that recipients are not in a position to award themselves. We need to use the system better and award such medals as CGM , Meritorious Service Medal, and reserve DSM for hotter incidents including armed boardings. Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.

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  22. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It depends on interpretation and if recommendations have been made by those reporting or submitting findings. Late awards are a feature such as Jadotville , Fire on Cliona , and " Dances with Waves ". You can be sure that recipients are not in a position to award themselves. We need to use the system better and award such medals as CGM , Meritorious Service Medal, and reserve DSM for hotter incidents including armed boardings. Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.
    In 2 of the 3 incidents you mention it was only after a long public campaign that medals were awarded. The decision makers for the former were long retired and probably passed from this world and their decisions or motivation at the time could not be questioned. There was no campaign for Seabight, so why the 10 year delay?
    Based on the citations alone, many who got DSMs would have been better getting Commendations. In other cases, those who got DSMs should have got MMGs.
    The system is flawed and not transparent.
    This is contrary in my opinion to the Scott Medal awarded by An Garda Siochana. Nobody gets one for driving a desk. Most have earned them by putting their life on the line in doing their duty. Some have died while doing so.
    Very few awards are given to gardai above the rank of inspector.
    Those who excell in driving a desk get a commendation from their superiors. Simple and transparent.
    Time to review?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  24. #43
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    . Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.
    If it was me, please let me know the unfair comments. I have no wish to do down anyone.

    I agree the awards system needs an overhaul.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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  26. #44
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    For meritorious service with the United Nations Force in the Republic of the Congo, for
    resourcefulness and devotion to duty. *************supervised and worked on the repair of
    two wrecked armoured cars. With limited workshop facilities and by working long hours and
    by improvisation, he succeeded in returning both cars to service. He worked over and beyond
    the normal call of duty and displayed skill, resourcefulness and devotion to duty
    The above is typical of the awards made, a medic in the Congo who rescued people under fire is given the same grade of award as a fitter doing a bit of overtime....and the citations are full of crap like this.

    There was no campaign for Seabight, so why the 10 year delay?
    Because the current CoS was awarded his DSM under similar circumstances and someone drew comparrisons and decided they wanted one ...I have my suspicions given the individuals career died after a incident which his day in court was less than glorious...but thats just my opinion

    For displaying a high degree of professionalism and courage on two occasions in Camp Clara,
    Monrovia, Liberia on the night of the 24th of October 2004, when, without regard to his
    personal safety, Comdt Ian Byrne rendered assistance to a colleague in a treacherous and
    polluted sea during the hours of darkness, his decisive action in dangerous and life-threatening
    circumstances resulted in the successful rescue of a colleague.
    I went into the water in 1988 in January at night in Bantry to keep a guy afloat while help arrived and then got him into the liberty boat and back on shore ........he had fallen from the pier , hit the mussel barge on the way down and was actually under the pier where he couldn't be reached by boat.

    What did I get... a fcuking bollocking for putting myself in danger!

    Did I deserve a DSM...no but could have done without the bollocking by the OOD!!!!

    Absolutely no consistency in awards and is actually insulting to see people get medals for making tea while others performed deeds of actual heroism.

    75% of that list is absolute shite!

    Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.
    I don't agree... you look at each case on its merits and compare it with similar circumstances where no award was made and then look at incidents where you know there are contributing factors that would have affected the outcomes but get overlooked it is actually puke making!

    While in the AR I know of a friend who lay under a truck holding a old womans leg together in the rain while her life ebbed away, en route from an exercise, until the ambulance eventually arrived and she subsequently died.....rendered aid and comfort !!!!.... Nearly took a presidential order to get him a new set of DPMs. Had it been a officer instead of an NCO there would have been an award!

    I make no apologies for my comments.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 4th February 2018 at 21:02.
    Just visiting

  27. #45
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The Statute of limitations on the award of a DSM is 6 years..
    to be recommended and (I assume) for it to get up the chain of command

    The precedent for the award in actions of this nature actually goes back to the CoS from his action in the' Brime' affair.. at least he was in the vicinity at the time!
    For a drug interdiction, not for the OC of an NS vessel getting a DSM - that was Air India in 1986. I’m not comparing the two!

    And even on the day they got it wrong dress wise.....

    No medals worn by those having awards made!!!!
    +1

    People in point of contact deserve the medals, not those who put them there!!!
    leadership?

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    The main thrust is that if there is a medal to be awarded the Officer gets it (The border fox) or rather if there is medals to be awarded the Officer gets one and then blah...
    leadership, command responsibility.....

    I’m not saying it’s right

    Didn’t the Sgt in Kilkenny also get a DSM?

    A previous poster referred to the helicopter lads- in most instance the entire crew got the medal because the pilots regardless of rank and with balls bigger than Sexton got the crewmen into position and the crew men with balls bigger than Jupiter did the rescues, hence the entire crew and let this be clear, that's the way it should be, the entire team gets it or no one gets it.
    depends why it was awarded IMHO, Courage absolutely

    A question was also raised on social media- this citation is for an operation 10 years ago. The person who would have been in the chain of command for the recommending of these awards is (???) Markie PR the photogenic COS who has a DSM because he was in charge of a big ship.

    Its interesting to note that Markie PR's vessel was crewed by men and women who carried out some audacious operations that saved lives and captured smugglers all at the risk of their own life and f uck all pay or thanks.
    LE Aisling 1981 (fire)
    CPO, PO

    Air India 1985 (SAR)
    Lt Cdr, PO, LS, AB

    FV Gardotza 1990 (SAR)
    LS (posthumously RIP), AB

    Brime 1993 (drugs)
    Lt Cdr, AB

    Nickoletta 1994 (drugs)
    2 x AB

    Apologies if I’ve missed any

    Its now normal that no matter how crap a COS/ FC is (McCann, Shreenan, Pat Nashville etc) they are going to get the DSM, is this the start of a normalisation process that all Naval Officers in charge of an operation will get an award.
    in fairness, some turned the DF around....not necessarily all

    With regards to NS see above

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    So many awarded for being the officer in charge.. of something.

    So many coxwains also awarded medals for their boat handling skills during an anti drugs operation.
    see above

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    In 2 of the 3 incidents you mention it was only after a long public campaign that medals were awarded. The decision makers for the former were long retired and probably passed from this world and their decisions or motivation at the time could not be questioned. There was no campaign for Seabight, so why the 10 year delay?
    Based on the citations alone, many who got DSMs would have been better getting Commendations. In other cases, those who got DSMs should have got MMGs.
    The system is flawed and not transparent.
    This is contrary in my opinion to the Scott Medal awarded by An Garda Siochana. Nobody gets one for driving a desk. Most have earned them by putting their life on the line in doing their duty. Some have died while doing so.
    Very few awards are given to gardai above the rank of inspector.
    Those who excell in driving a desk get a commendation from their superiors. Simple and transparent.
    Time to review?
    the guys from LE Cliona got commendations

    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The above is typical of the awards made, a medic in the Congo who rescued people under fire is given the same grade of award as a fitter doing a bit of overtime....and the citations are full of crap like this.
    in fairness all we have is a brief paragraph

    the individuals career died after a incident which his day in court was less than glorious...but thats just my opinion
    ?

    I went into the water in 1988 in January at night in Bantry to keep a guy afloat while help arrived and then got him into the liberty boat and back on shore ........he had fallen from the pier , hit the mussel barge on the way down and was actually under the pier where he couldn't be reached by boat.

    What did I get... a fcuking bollocking for putting myself in danger!

    Did I deserve a DSM...no but could have done without the bollocking by the OOD!!!!
    AFAIK the water in Liberia was out of bounds... due to sharks (I could be wrong)

    genuinely fair play!!! Maybe it did...2 army privates got DSMs for pulling a German crewman out of the water at Fenit

    Absolutely no consistency in awards and is actually insulting to see people get medals for making tea while others performed deeds of actual heroism.
    absolutely


    I don't agree... you look at each case on its merits and compare it with similar circumstances where no award was made and then look at incidents where you know there are contributing factors that would have affected the outcomes but get overlooked it is actually puke making!.
    i would compare cases on the merits but no 2 situations are the same so IMHO they shouldn’t be compared



    My own personal opinion is that we need a wider variety of awards. From a notation in 108/667 to MMG
    Last edited by DeV; 4th February 2018 at 23:44.

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  29. #46
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Wooooahhhhh,


    Can you name a COS who “turned the DF around”
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  30. #47
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Wooooahhhhh,


    Can you name a COS who “turned the DF around”
    not single handled obviously

    But look at the positive changes in the DF that were implemented due to the Gleeson Commission and the 1998 reorg

  31. #48
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    not single handled obviously

    But look at the positive changes in the DF that were implemented due to the Gleeson Commission and the 1998 reorg

    Let’s be honest no COS has done anything that could honestly be deemed to be beneficial to the core components (the troops) of the DF.

    Dave Stapleton came the closest.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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  33. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Let’s be honest no COS has done anything that could honestly be deemed to be beneficial to the core components (the troops) of the DF.

    Dave Stapleton came the closest.
    The position and conditions applying to the post of COS is a bit presidential with no real power. To get anything done it depends on the relationship within the general staff and the Brigade commands . A COS would have to put his future on the line to make radical noises for turning things around. Retired associations such as PDFORRA and IARCO would have more Media access, and would be better at a planned assault on Parkgate mandarins..
    There was a premature assumption that only officers get recommended for awards, it turns out that there is still a DSM to be given to a former rate from the Dances with Wolves incident.
    I agree that occasionally in a burst of gratitude an award can get misdirected. All recommendations must pass through AG's branch and
    will live or die thereafter.
    Carl O'Sullivan scraped up 1 million punts to a put a proper gun on the Eithne in 1983. I thought he was the bees knees. We were in danger of getting a GFE from stores.
    In the fire on Aisling, by the way loaded below and above deck with live ammunition for the PDF, an officer recommended the award of medals to a number of ratings, with his prime choice going to a young engineroom mechanician , who had been instructed to remain in the control room to answer the phone, while the outside of the room was been lapped by flame. The NCO had left to call the Engineer and to release the smothering system into the generator room. The young guy could see the fire through the control room windows and yet stood his ground . I was impressed.

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    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    The position and conditions applying to the post of COS is a bit presidential with no real power
    No its not. And if it is, then why the DSM for a lad who has "no real power". The COS is the power in the DF.

    To get anything done it depends on the relationship within the general staff and the Brigade commands
    You do realise its a military organisation, they don't have to like you or even respect you- but they do have to do what you say. As a recruit I learned that.


    A COS would have to put his future on the line to make radical noises for turning things around
    This is something I can never understand- the Chief is the pinnacle of ones career, there is no promotion from Chief to anything else. If you are the Sec Gen of the Dept you can get promoted on retirement to the board of this or the board of that- but I do not know of any retired chief who got a cushy board appointment.

    What have they to be afraid of. Dave Stapleton threatened the Dept with his resignation and the Dept backed down.

    Lets be clear, there is no next step from COS. the holder should have the bollox to say- what can you fu ckers do to me...


    There was a premature assumption that only officers get recommended for awards, it turns out that there is still a DSM to be given to a former rate from the Dances with Wolves incident.
    It should never be down to an officers v enlisted choice- every one of that boarding party crew should get the DSM. They all displayed balls of carbonite.
    If the crew of the LE Hedgehog (150 all ranks) did the same brave thing then the entire crew of the LE Hedgehog should get the medal. Not just the boss and a token working class lad.


    All recommendations must pass through AG's branch and
    will live or die thereafter.
    You are showing your age

    Carl O'Sullivan scraped up 1 million punts to a put a proper gun on the Eithne in 1983. I thought he was the bees knees. We were in danger of getting a GFE from stores.
    he NCO had left to call the Engineer and to release the smothering system into the generator room. The young guy could see the fire through the control room windows and yet stood his ground . I was impressed.
    How did it turn out?
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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