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  • #31
    I shit myself at the thought of crossing a body of water- I couldn't even estimate the bravery of lads getting into a small speed boat in rough seas that measure 6 metres.
    Try it back in my day when the boats were smaller
    and we didn't have a fraction of the life saving gear in the event of ending up in the water.

    Mick Quinn and Paul Kellet found out this week 29 years ago while to attempting a rescue in Co. Cork

    Mick lost his life and Paul pushed survival to the limits.

    I knew Mick Quinn, used to have a few pints with the guy on occasion, nothing out of the ordinary, just did his job..

    They got DSMs, now how does their sacrifice equate with others putting crews in the face of danger.

    Lt Cdr Noel Goulding didn't get a DSM for losing a Boat Cox'n on the night , nor was he put forward for one. But his actions in putting a boat in the water were no less notable than any other skipper who has.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

    Comment


    • #32


      Before this even get more emotive, we don’t know what the citations say (ie exactly why they were awarded), we also weren’t there when most of these were awarded so we don’t know if they were deserved (even the COS ones we didn’t see everything they saw, the unseen challenges faced etc).

      All we know is what was in the media

      I’d encourage all to have a look at the link and read them start to finish. DSMs have been awarded what I would consider some very strange reasons in the past. I wasn’t there so I can’t judge
      Last edited by DeV; 4 February 2018, 10:20.

      Comment


      • #33
        [QUOTE=hptmurphy;457454]Try it back in my day when the boats were smaller
        and we didn't have a fraction of the life saving gear in the event of ending up in the water.

        There was an interesting study done some years ago, by either the Canadian or US Coastguards, on the use of RHIB craft in breaking water near shelving beaches or back wash from rocky areas. Water around the boat gets highly aerated and steering is lost due to propellers losing grip in solid water. The answer in such cases is complicated and would require standoff and helicopter procedures with the casualty assisting in the rescue.
        It can be a similar reason why you must never swim in gaseous water such as in quarries where water loses buoyancy.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          http://source.southdublinlibraries.i..._Citations.pdf

          Before this even get more emotive, we don’t know what the citations say (ie exactly why they were awarded), we also weren’t there when most of these were awarded so we don’t know if they were deserved (even the COS ones we didn’t see everything they saw, the unseen challenges faced etc).

          All we know is what was in the media

          I’d encourage all to have a look at the link and read them start to finish. DSMs have been awarded what I would consider some very strange reasons in the past. I wasn’t there so I can’t judge
          So many awarded for being the officer in charge.. of something.

          So many coxwains also awarded medals for their boat handling skills during an anti drugs operation.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
            So many awarded for being the officer in charge.. of something.

            So many coxwains also awarded medals for their boat handling skills during an anti drugs operation.
            Look at all of them, there is all sorts - not belittling them but on the face of it some of them look like they got out of bed in the morning (and I’m not talking about the COS & FC ones) but is wasn’t there so I can’t say they weren’t deserved. I’m sure they made a difference.

            According to this thread the RHIB Cox’n has been awarded a DSM too

            Comment


            • #36
              In honour of our COS they've renamed the DSM the "Dashingly supervising the men" award, maybe distinguished supervising medal?
              Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                According to this thread the RHIB Cox’n has been awarded a DSM too
                There we go. premature reaction (sic). He was obviously recommended. Delighted for all coxswains without whom nobody gets to where they need to be.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  http://source.southdublinlibraries.i..._Citations.pdf

                  Before this even get more emotive, we don’t know what the citations say (ie exactly why they were awarded), we also weren’t there when most of these were awarded so we don’t know if they were deserved (even the COS ones we didn’t see everything they saw, the unseen challenges faced etc).

                  All we know is what was in the media

                  I’d encourage all to have a look at the link and read them start to finish. DSMs have been awarded what I would consider some very strange reasons in the past. I wasn’t there so I can’t judge
                  I would disagree with you mate,

                  Also there is a lot of exers on social media commenting on this.

                  The main thrust is that if there is a medal to be awarded the Officer gets it (The border fox) or rather if there is medals to be awarded the Officer gets one and then blah...

                  A previous poster referred to the helicopter lads- in most instance the entire crew got the medal because the pilots regardless of rank and with balls bigger than Sexton got the crewmen into position and the crew men with balls bigger than Jupiter did the rescues, hence the entire crew and let this be clear, that's the way it should be, the entire team gets it or no one gets it.

                  A question was also raised on social media- this citation is for an operation 10 years ago. The person who would have been in the chain of command for the recommending of these awards is (???) Markie PR the photogenic COS who has a DSM because he was in charge of a big ship.

                  Its interesting to note that Markie PR's vessel was crewed by men and women who carried out some audacious operations that saved lives and captured smugglers all at the risk of their own life and f uck all pay or thanks.

                  Its now normal that no matter how crap a COS/ FC is (McCann, Shreenan, Pat Nashville etc) they are going to get the DSM, is this the start of a normalisation process that all Naval Officers in charge of an operation will get an award.

                  On a lighter note- Its great to see Leinster beating France yesterday. There is no doubt Munster have 1 or 2 fairly acceptable players but the rest are flotsam (Naval talk) and therefore not pulling their weight. Is it not time to disband Munster and give the money to the other 3 provinces.

                  Just in case you think this is an anti Munster rant, I am calling for the same thing for Mayo.
                  Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                  Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                  The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                  The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                  The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                  Are full of passionate intensity.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    All munsters best players now play in france.
                    As for Rapester..
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                      As an aside is this the first time a retired serviceman has been in receipt of a commendation? Why the delay?
                      Finger In Posterior Syndrome?
                      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                        Finger In Posterior Syndrome?
                        It depends on interpretation and if recommendations have been made by those reporting or submitting findings. Late awards are a feature such as Jadotville , Fire on Cliona , and " Dances with Waves ". You can be sure that recipients are not in a position to award themselves. We need to use the system better and award such medals as CGM , Meritorious Service Medal, and reserve DSM for hotter incidents including armed boardings. Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                          It depends on interpretation and if recommendations have been made by those reporting or submitting findings. Late awards are a feature such as Jadotville , Fire on Cliona , and " Dances with Waves ". You can be sure that recipients are not in a position to award themselves. We need to use the system better and award such medals as CGM , Meritorious Service Medal, and reserve DSM for hotter incidents including armed boardings. Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.
                          In 2 of the 3 incidents you mention it was only after a long public campaign that medals were awarded. The decision makers for the former were long retired and probably passed from this world and their decisions or motivation at the time could not be questioned. There was no campaign for Seabight, so why the 10 year delay?
                          Based on the citations alone, many who got DSMs would have been better getting Commendations. In other cases, those who got DSMs should have got MMGs.
                          The system is flawed and not transparent.
                          This is contrary in my opinion to the Scott Medal awarded by An Garda Siochana. Nobody gets one for driving a desk. Most have earned them by putting their life on the line in doing their duty. Some have died while doing so.
                          Very few awards are given to gardai above the rank of inspector.
                          Those who excell in driving a desk get a commendation from their superiors. Simple and transparent.
                          Time to review?
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            . Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.
                            If it was me, please let me know the unfair comments. I have no wish to do down anyone.

                            I agree the awards system needs an overhaul.
                            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                            Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                            The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                            The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                            The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                            Are full of passionate intensity.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              For meritorious service with the United Nations Force in the Republic of the Congo, for
                              resourcefulness and devotion to duty. *************supervised and worked on the repair of
                              two wrecked armoured cars. With limited workshop facilities and by working long hours and
                              by improvisation, he succeeded in returning both cars to service. He worked over and beyond
                              the normal call of duty and displayed skill, resourcefulness and devotion to duty
                              The above is typical of the awards made, a medic in the Congo who rescued people under fire is given the same grade of award as a fitter doing a bit of overtime....and the citations are full of crap like this.

                              There was no campaign for Seabight, so why the 10 year delay?
                              Because the current CoS was awarded his DSM under similar circumstances and someone drew comparrisons and decided they wanted one ...I have my suspicions given the individuals career died after a incident which his day in court was less than glorious...but thats just my opinion

                              For displaying a high degree of professionalism and courage on two occasions in Camp Clara,
                              Monrovia, Liberia on the night of the 24th of October 2004, when, without regard to his
                              personal safety, Comdt Ian Byrne rendered assistance to a colleague in a treacherous and
                              polluted sea during the hours of darkness, his decisive action in dangerous and life-threatening
                              circumstances resulted in the successful rescue of a colleague.
                              I went into the water in 1988 in January at night in Bantry to keep a guy afloat while help arrived and then got him into the liberty boat and back on shore ........he had fallen from the pier , hit the mussel barge on the way down and was actually under the pier where he couldn't be reached by boat.

                              What did I get... a fcuking bollocking for putting myself in danger!

                              Did I deserve a DSM...no but could have done without the bollocking by the OOD!!!!

                              Absolutely no consistency in awards and is actually insulting to see people get medals for making tea while others performed deeds of actual heroism.

                              75% of that list is absolute shite!

                              Some comments so far are unexpected and unfair.
                              I don't agree... you look at each case on its merits and compare it with similar circumstances where no award was made and then look at incidents where you know there are contributing factors that would have affected the outcomes but get overlooked it is actually puke making!

                              While in the AR I know of a friend who lay under a truck holding a old womans leg together in the rain while her life ebbed away, en route from an exercise, until the ambulance eventually arrived and she subsequently died.....rendered aid and comfort !!!!.... Nearly took a presidential order to get him a new set of DPMs. Had it been a officer instead of an NCO there would have been an award!

                              I make no apologies for my comments.
                              Last edited by hptmurphy; 4 February 2018, 21:02.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                The Statute of limitations on the award of a DSM is 6 years..
                                to be recommended and (I assume) for it to get up the chain of command

                                The precedent for the award in actions of this nature actually goes back to the CoS from his action in the' Brime' affair.. at least he was in the vicinity at the time!
                                For a drug interdiction, not for the OC of an NS vessel getting a DSM - that was Air India in 1986. I’m not comparing the two!

                                And even on the day they got it wrong dress wise.....

                                No medals worn by those having awards made!!!!
                                +1

                                People in point of contact deserve the medals, not those who put them there!!!
                                leadership?

                                Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                                The main thrust is that if there is a medal to be awarded the Officer gets it (The border fox) or rather if there is medals to be awarded the Officer gets one and then blah...
                                leadership, command responsibility.....

                                I’m not saying it’s right

                                Didn’t the Sgt in Kilkenny also get a DSM?

                                A previous poster referred to the helicopter lads- in most instance the entire crew got the medal because the pilots regardless of rank and with balls bigger than Sexton got the crewmen into position and the crew men with balls bigger than Jupiter did the rescues, hence the entire crew and let this be clear, that's the way it should be, the entire team gets it or no one gets it.
                                depends why it was awarded IMHO, Courage absolutely

                                A question was also raised on social media- this citation is for an operation 10 years ago. The person who would have been in the chain of command for the recommending of these awards is (???) Markie PR the photogenic COS who has a DSM because he was in charge of a big ship.

                                Its interesting to note that Markie PR's vessel was crewed by men and women who carried out some audacious operations that saved lives and captured smugglers all at the risk of their own life and f uck all pay or thanks.
                                LE Aisling 1981 (fire)
                                CPO, PO

                                Air India 1985 (SAR)
                                Lt Cdr, PO, LS, AB

                                FV Gardotza 1990 (SAR)
                                LS (posthumously RIP), AB

                                Brime 1993 (drugs)
                                Lt Cdr, AB

                                Nickoletta 1994 (drugs)
                                2 x AB

                                Apologies if I’ve missed any

                                Its now normal that no matter how crap a COS/ FC is (McCann, Shreenan, Pat Nashville etc) they are going to get the DSM, is this the start of a normalisation process that all Naval Officers in charge of an operation will get an award.
                                in fairness, some turned the DF around....not necessarily all

                                With regards to NS see above

                                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                So many awarded for being the officer in charge.. of something.

                                So many coxwains also awarded medals for their boat handling skills during an anti drugs operation.
                                see above

                                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                In 2 of the 3 incidents you mention it was only after a long public campaign that medals were awarded. The decision makers for the former were long retired and probably passed from this world and their decisions or motivation at the time could not be questioned. There was no campaign for Seabight, so why the 10 year delay?
                                Based on the citations alone, many who got DSMs would have been better getting Commendations. In other cases, those who got DSMs should have got MMGs.
                                The system is flawed and not transparent.
                                This is contrary in my opinion to the Scott Medal awarded by An Garda Siochana. Nobody gets one for driving a desk. Most have earned them by putting their life on the line in doing their duty. Some have died while doing so.
                                Very few awards are given to gardai above the rank of inspector.
                                Those who excell in driving a desk get a commendation from their superiors. Simple and transparent.
                                Time to review?
                                the guys from LE Cliona got commendations

                                +1

                                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                The above is typical of the awards made, a medic in the Congo who rescued people under fire is given the same grade of award as a fitter doing a bit of overtime....and the citations are full of crap like this.
                                in fairness all we have is a brief paragraph

                                the individuals career died after a incident which his day in court was less than glorious...but thats just my opinion
                                ?

                                I went into the water in 1988 in January at night in Bantry to keep a guy afloat while help arrived and then got him into the liberty boat and back on shore ........he had fallen from the pier , hit the mussel barge on the way down and was actually under the pier where he couldn't be reached by boat.

                                What did I get... a fcuking bollocking for putting myself in danger!

                                Did I deserve a DSM...no but could have done without the bollocking by the OOD!!!!
                                AFAIK the water in Liberia was out of bounds... due to sharks (I could be wrong)

                                genuinely fair play!!! Maybe it did...2 army privates got DSMs for pulling a German crewman out of the water at Fenit

                                Absolutely no consistency in awards and is actually insulting to see people get medals for making tea while others performed deeds of actual heroism.
                                absolutely


                                I don't agree... you look at each case on its merits and compare it with similar circumstances where no award was made and then look at incidents where you know there are contributing factors that would have affected the outcomes but get overlooked it is actually puke making!.
                                i would compare cases on the merits but no 2 situations are the same so IMHO they shouldn’t be compared



                                My own personal opinion is that we need a wider variety of awards. From a notation in 108/667 to MMG
                                Last edited by DeV; 4 February 2018, 23:44.

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