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Thread: PDF retention

  1. #1
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    PDF retention

    Have a go at solving the woes of the DF.

    You never know who is listening!!

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    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    IMHO we have a few options.

    1/ Keep going with the current Tactic IE Recruitment.Which we know is not working.

    2/ Throw money at the problem. A non runner thanks to DPER and DoD.

    3/ Start coming up with ideas that cost nothing but will show we value our people and understand their issues. These ideas might be difficult to implement due to dinosaurs at all levels of Command/Management complaining about how "That's not how we do things".

    I reckon it's the small things that make the difference.Like not having our troops have to wait months just to get a pair of boots or a shirt when the uniform on their back is falling apart or perhaps looking at Start times on a Monday and knock off times on a Friday to take account of the fact that in this day and age alot of our troops are travelling long distances just to get home or get to work and may not be able to afford cars.

    Subsidised childcare?

    Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?

    Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.

    Make our people feel valued and looked after.
    Infantry Corps - An L√°mh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Look at the odf, redresses etc and actually fix the issues rather than having the same issues over and over again.

    One way to do that is to rewrite DFRs, Admin/Logs Instructions to make the DF easier and more efficient to admin (see above)

    Deliver pay promptly. Why do people have to wait months for duty money? My employer pays 250 people (equivalent to a Coy plus). The managers do the hours by 10am Monday, they pay is correct wages the following Wednesday (ie a back week). How many people work in payroll? one (she also does the salaries for another 100+ on a monthly basis).

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    Promotion based on meritocracy and managerial/leadership ability.

    Increased pay scales / creation of warrant officer rank for technical appointments to allow for technical mastery while insulating from management responsibilities.

    Firing of toxic leadership. Firing of unsatisfactory performance. 360 degree feedback, unit climate surveys.

    Subsidised / provision of base accomodation for families not just singles.

    Broadening assignments/secondment with multinational partners/private industry (for all ranks not just officers)

    Holistic renumeration package: private health care scheme for members (all ranks), food, greater educational training access

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    Retention is difficult as the initiative that retains one person may well drive another out. More overseas, great for the young lad recently recruited to get on his first trip, could drive out the fitter Sgt expected to tog out for his 3rd trip in 5 years.

    A lot of the issues in the climate survey are leadership based. How can the Pte in 28Bn and 1 BAR be paid the same but have such different attitudes in the climate survey? The leadership climate that has been allowed to foster or fester in a given location. In some units getting charged with absence is almost a right of passage, others you are an embarrassment to the organisation.

    Making people of all ranks feel valued and appreciated is the way forward. Whether that is having a local arrangement that the Cpl that comes in at 7 every morning to beat traffic is given the nod to head off at 4 if things are quiet or it is having is having the ability to forecast duties more than 2 weeks ahead so that someone can plan their life.

    With NCOs on the road a lot more now and senior NCOs living in in almost every location, something a simple as good accomodation for a BSM / CQ living in is not too much to ask
    Last edited by Fantasia; 5th May 2018 at 01:17.

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    Am in total agreement with the flexibility route. If that and pay were sorted, those two alone could go a long way to aiding retention.

    Reduce regimental duties from 24 to 12 hours would be another biggie, IMHO. Although be careful what you wish for, would troops be OK with the probable resultant halving in duty pay as a result?

    Was speaking to a PDF C/S of my acquaintance. Said there is talk of extending the upper age limit from 50 to 60 for Sgts and above. Unsure how this would apply to Ptes and Cpls.

    Not surprised there is a huge discrepancy in the climate surveys between 1 BAR and 28 Bn. The former is in the Bde HQ location, the latter is at the outer extremity of their Bde AO yet their lads are getting pulled to Dublin for a week at a time to do duties?? Hardly conducive to family life or good morale...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Retention is difficult as the initiative that retains one person may well drive another out. More overseas, great for the young lad recently recruited to get on his first trip, could drive out the fitter Sgt expected to tog out for his 3rd trip in 5 years.
    There lies another issue, not training enough people to carry out the jobs required.
    Courses that will get lads overseas are always oversubscribed, but there is still shortages of trained personnel.

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  14. #8
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    IMHO we have a few options.

    1/ Keep going with the current Tactic IE Recruitment.Which we know is not working.

    2/ Throw money at the problem. A non runner thanks to DPER and DoD.

    3/ Start coming up with ideas that cost nothing but will show we value our people and understand their issues. These ideas might be difficult to implement due to dinosaurs at all levels of Command/Management complaining about how "That's not how we do things".

    I reckon it's the small things that make the difference.Like not having our troops have to wait months just to get a pair of boots or a shirt when the uniform on their back is falling apart or perhaps looking at Start times on a Monday and knock off times on a Friday to take account of the fact that in this day and age alot of our troops are travelling long distances just to get home or get to work and may not be able to afford cars.

    Subsidised childcare?

    Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?

    Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.

    Make our people feel valued and looked after.
    And meanwhile back in the real world.......

    For all intents and purposes the DF are civil servants even though while not treated equally they fall under the same umbrella. Anything 'extra' that is offered will fall under scrutiny of the public service unions and be demanded for their members and therefore would incur additional costs,....not going to happen.

    Even if the DF were to get a special status within the public sector all these things would be seen as benefit in kind and would attract taxation once thresholds had been reached. Might actually cause more problems than anything else.

    The intake vs retention thing is not seen as a DF problem by politicians, but as a DF problem. The minister will say that he is providing funding and permission to recruit, its the DF's issue to retain them, the HSE has the same problems. The ministers brief is to be seen to keep feeding bodies into the machine while keeping numbers on the live register down.

    Now the bigger problem,...Public Perception.... Joe Public doesn't give a fcuk except when it snows or floods!

    Under the categories of not giving a fcuk....

    Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.....most of the big retailers no longer give their own staff discounts any more!!!!

    Subsidised childcare?..........shouldn't everybody get it?

    Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?..........Core Pay is the issue .....

    Make our people feel valued and looked after.............by whom their leaders.........?

    Increase in Core Pay

    Security of tenure

    Pay and Conditions

    These will solve all your issues in a heart beat. How do you get them? Need to start pushing the envelope like AGS did and see how the politicos will act...
    Time for another break I think......

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Core pay is a serious issue but it is far from the only one.

    If line pay was quadrupled in the morning those other serious issues would still exist.

    While pay needs to be absolutely kept on the table, the other issues need to be addressed. Some of these a zero or little cost and some will actually save money and resources. They will have a positive effect on the morale and efficiency of the DF.

    These wouldnít fix the problem but would make the job itself easier

  17. #10
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    And meanwhile back in the real world.......

    For all intents and purposes the DF are civil servants even though while not treated equally they fall under the same umbrella. Anything 'extra' that is offered will fall under scrutiny of the public service unions and be demanded for their members and therefore would incur additional costs,....not going to happen.

    Even if the DF were to get a special status within the public sector all these things would be seen as benefit in kind and would attract taxation once thresholds had been reached. Might actually cause more problems than anything else.

    The intake vs retention thing is not seen as a DF problem by politicians, but as a DF problem. The minister will say that he is providing funding and permission to recruit, its the DF's issue to retain them, the HSE has the same problems. The ministers brief is to be seen to keep feeding bodies into the machine while keeping numbers on the live register down.

    Now the bigger problem,...Public Perception.... Joe Public doesn't give a fcuk except when it snows or floods!

    Under the categories of not giving a fcuk....

    Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.....most of the big retailers no longer give their own staff discounts any more!!!!

    Subsidised childcare?..........shouldn't everybody get it?

    Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?..........Core Pay is the issue .....

    Make our people feel valued and looked after.............by whom their leaders.........?

    Increase in Core Pay

    Security of tenure

    Pay and Conditions

    These will solve all your issues in a heart beat. How do you get them? Need to start pushing the envelope like AGS did and see how the politicos will act...
    Tell me something.

    Did you actually read my post before going off on another of your HSE Unions vs the rest of the public sector rants??

    What part of "cost increasing" from DPER and DoD do you not get? (Yet the DF handed back millions last year).

    I work in the DF day to day.You don't. I see the problems. You don't. I have to deal with trying to motivate people to do a job they feel underpaid and undervalued for .Where they get platitudes from our political overlords for when they step up when the country needs them,while at the same time being slated by every journo who needs airtime or column inches for being a waste of money.

    So.I'll tell you what.Go away and come up with ideas to fix that bastion of competence and integrity that you work for and leave this thread for those who might just come up with a good idea to fix the problems that our troops suffer every day.


    PS: While your post is obviously rooted in jealousy that another PUBLIC sector (Only Officers are Civil service BTW) group might get something your mob might not.Consider this.
    The two groups that have been prioritised by the Public service Pay commission are???
    Guess who??

    The DF AND NURSES. The DF are the lowest paid public servants BTW so if we get ANYTHING we MORE than deserve it.
    Last edited by apod; 7th May 2018 at 12:30.
    Infantry Corps - An L√°mh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  19. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Looking at part 2 of the Climate Survey, my recommendations:
    - look at increasing the duration of the cadetship to include training which is currently done post commissioning
    - targeted recruitment of holders of specific degrees (they are currently doing this for Ord & Engr)
    - use the CFR scheme more often specifically to fill tech vacancies
    - increased modularising of longer career Cses
    - reduced dependence on sending newly commissioned school leavers to university (unless specifically required for DF needs)
    - longer rotations of officers
    - delegate much of DoD Personnel Policy to the DF
    - annual leave to be facilitated better
    - healthier options for rations
    - look at changing overseas commitment to a single larger Bn (rather than 2 Inf Gps)
    - change the SSC for the NS to a longer duration
    - NCO input into junior ranks 667s
    - minimum (enforceable) 6 months notice of redeployment
    - much improved notification & selection for courses
    - payment of pay, allowances etc to be completed promptly
    - reform of (non-career) courses requirements for promotion
    - proper simplified (Corps/role specific) career development structure
    - survey of preferred location for those requesting transfers (potential swapping of personnel)
    - reduced bureaucracy to make admin easier, more efficient and timely

    Thatís from the first 109 pages of part 2 of the climate survey, all zero/minimal cost (that would make a real difference), some may create further issues or require time to implement.

    None of which would solve pay but they would improve issues

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    The current NCO promotion system is broken and it is driving a lot of excellent NCOs out.

    I would drop the Cpl - Sgt competition from the current system and leave it for SNCO appts only.

    I think we will see a move in DF pay in the not too distant future but it will be done through an increase in MSA rather than basic pay so that it doesnt impact other sectors

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  22. #13
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Apod....

    I had a long a detailed response typed up but I deleted it... you're right in your own mind.. Knowing your mindset ,what ever I say on the issue is wrong..so why bother.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 7th May 2018 at 14:59.
    Time for another break I think......

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    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Apod....

    I had a long a detailed response typed up but I deleted it... you're right in your own mind.. Knowing your mindset ,what ever I say on the issue is wrong..so why bother.
    Gotta love that one. A thread is started to come up with ideas to try and solve a major issue,where the first few posts were positive.

    You come on the thread and act like a dismissive smartarse and get called out on it. Then you turn it around on me for calling you out?? Some cheek. A couple of points though.

    1/ You know nothing about my "Mindset".We have never met,and with your "everything is a pissing contest"attitude I hope we never do.

    2/ It's not a case of saying "Whatever i say is wrong" like a scolded child. You ARE wrong .Simple as.

    Just as an example of how shitty the DF get treated but how little things do make a difference to Morale.
    A buddy of mine was waiting in line behind a Cop in the local Topaz.Both were in uniform and this was a couple of days after Storm Ophelia where the DF were out helping the public 24/7.Both were buying coffee.The cop pays for his and leaves. My mate goes to the counter and is told by the server that the cost of his coffee is Ä1 as opposed to the normal Ä2.50. My buddy is chuffed and says thanks only for another assistant standing nearby to pass comment "That discount is only for Gardai and Ambulance Staff".

    The same gardai and Ambulance staff who rely on us to get them to where they need to go when Storms ground their fleets.Neither group have I ever seen filling thousand of sandbags for peoples houses or wading through dangerous levels of water to evacuate people ,man pumps outside their houses all night or ferry dialysis patients to hospital and back when the rst of the Emergency services ground to a halt.

    So.Yeah.My mate left there feeling pretty shitty to say the least. So you can keep your indignation thanks. Back in the real world indeed.
    Infantry Corps - An L√°mh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  26. #15
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    ust as an example of how shitty the DF get treated but how little things do make a difference to Morale.
    A buddy of mine was waiting in line behind a Cop in the local Topaz.Both were in uniform and this was a couple of days after Storm Ophelia where the DF were out helping the public 24/7.Both were buying coffee.The cop pays for his and leaves. My mate goes to the counter and is told by the server that the cost of his coffee is Ä1 as opposed to the normal Ä2.50. My buddy is chuffed and says thanks only for another assistant standing nearby to pass comment "That discount is only for Gardai and Ambulance Staff".

    The same gardai and Ambulance staff who rely on us to get them to where they need to go when Storms ground their fleets.Neither group have I ever seen filling thousand of sandbags for peoples houses or wading through dangerous levels of water to evacuate people ,man pumps outside their houses all night or ferry dialysis patients to hospital and back when the rst of the Emergency services ground to a halt.

    So.Yeah.My mate left there feeling pretty shitty to say the least. So you can keep your indignation thanks. Back in the real world indeed.
    You proved my point... No one outside the DF especially Joe Public gives a shit........

    and things like discounts...why would they?

    Why have AGS begun to get actual restoration and improvements and why do the politicians?

    .. because they are prepared to take action!

    My own stance, yes pay conditions etc need to be restored......my experience.... they are not going to hand it to you without a serious fight.........but you have to be realistic and know what the pitfalls are and what will and won't be given up.

    If the DF threatened to withdraw all non security related ATCA / ATCP what would the reaction be?.... if you are going out with your hand out for something you need to have a big stick in the other to show you mean business

    Fantasia has echoed my sentiment on knock on effect.....

    Its not about me, I have unions that will take action when they see fit.... the state of the HSE is well beyond my control, but from some years of having to sit around the negotiating table as management I know what the Unions will go after, what they will stay away from and what they will fight.

    Thats the kind of experience that PDFORRA need to bring to the table. The problem being the two tier system in the DF where Officer ranks would be unlikely to stand beside Other Ranks in any action.

    The method of representation needs to be revisited and aligned with the likes of the Public service unions who have made gains.

    I'm not pro union, I don't like them, I never wanted to be in one, but I have seen what they have done for their members and like it or not it must be recognised.

    You will not get anymore than other Public sector employee will get either in pay restoration of benefits so what needs to be target is a basic minimum packages.

    Dev highlights a lot of internal reform packages which may or may not be feasible, what difference they will make is to be calculated at some point in the future, but for now all these points make no difference to the guy who hasn't a bob in his arse pocket.

    If the Gardai win the right to strike at what ever court they have brought it to.. thats where the DF need to go. The ranks thing needs to be over come and they whole DF needs to fight to achieve basic rights...

    The DF needs to be covered by the various acts regarding employment in their entirety without local management over riding them willy nilly.

    To be able to disregard the Scandanavians or the Dutch who have actually unions in their forces and get idealistic about how the Irish Soldier conducts himself is not putting bread on the table. Is there the will for a seed change?

    If not the DF will always be the poor relation depending on the handouts rather than actually being able to fight their own corner.

    And yes you are probably right, I know little of you and your day to day issues in your job, but I do know that you work with people... I work with people and they all have the same issues... its just which end of the scale they are at and what the mechanisms are to deal with their problems. If they are paid properly all the other issues will be resolved in time.
    Time for another break I think......

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    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Pay was a joke for the PDF in the Haddington Road and Lansdowne road agreements ; they were not invited to the negotiations - either PDFORRA or RACO because the DOD are terrified of causing a knock-on effect.

    As Fantasia says you may see this being done through allowances but that is in no way a fix. RDF suck even worse because we get PDF pay less 10% with no allowances ( sorry Uniform allowance which is now taxed ffs )

    I think there is a tone deafness to why people are leaving - it will continue - the amount of tech jobs is not going to decrease and the pay is very good out there. DF could compete on accomodation if it built family lines - the Brits and the Americans do well with this to compensate for the pay, it also fosters a lot of family spirit. We used to until we lost sight of that.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Recent PQ on the matter
    In 2017, under my direction, the Department of Defence brought issues of recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces to the attention of the Public Sector Pay Commission (PSPC). As a direct result of that initiative the PSPC is now beginning an in-depth evidence based examination of those issues.

    The Public Service Pay Commission has commenced this work and has requested statistical data and evidence from my Department. My Department has been working in close collaboration with Military management with the aim of preparing the material requested. The Military authorities have produced a paper. This is being considered by my Department having regard to the data and information requested.

    My Department has forwarded an initial tranche of information to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in relation to Air Corps pilots. Further material in relation to the challenges in the Defence sector will be submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in the coming weeks as the collation of data and information is completed.

    The Public Service Pay Commission is due to complete its exercise in the second half of 2018. The findings and proposals arising will be considered at that time.
    http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas....ument#WRE00200
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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    Same thing happens my organisation. We may use the same service station as our colleagues in blue, having come in from working alongside them on the same checkpoint, taking the same abuse from public, wearing the same radios, only for GS to get one price and us to get another.
    The reason for this is simple. Should this station be victim of a robbery, will the cops rush to assist because they always get cheap coffee there? Of course they will, compared to the other one up the road that would prefer they get their coffee, pay full price and fork off. Obviously GS will treat all alerts with the same importance, but the forecourt owner may believe by giving GS cheap coffee they will give him priority, and will act as unpaid security staff during the dangerous hours, sipping their cheap coffee.
    WHat will the army do for the forecourt? Sandbags? Won't matter, they'll have no customers then anyway.
    You seem to be blaming the GS and Ambulance staff for your low pay. This is exactly what the government want. They, and certain elements of the media have been seeking to divide the ES workers from the commencement of pay talks, pitching the private sector against the public sector, and then pitting the Public sector workers against each other. ES unions are particularly bitter against DF rep orgs too, as it is clear that should any of them decide to take strike action, the DF will cover the gap, with no objection from the DF reps. (for whatever reason).
    The DF is a shrinking organisation. It needs to play the ICTU game, to the letter of the law. If it doesnt need to cover for striking workers, it shouldn't. My own union learnt this the hard way. Be part of the bigger team, even if you'll never get to play in the game.

    You say throwing money at the problem is a non runner because of DPER. Why so? DPER is in the process of reluctantly giving pay restoration to most other union who faced cuts during the financial crisis. The DF suffered more than most as in addition to pay cuts which came from an already lor start point, there was also cost saving measures which ended up costing the individual member of the DF twice, be it through reduced availability of extra pay allowances, or having an increased commute with additional unpaid unsocial hours. You know the financial hardships the members of the DF face daily. Do you not think improving this situation would help retention?
    I'm sure most are considering the jump because there are better financial rewards outside the main gate. DF pay should be competitive at least. If your mates are working 4 12 hour shifts in a factory with less skills than you, but earning an extra 15K a year, it is difficult to remain for just loyalty to the job.
    One Multinational in Cork prides itself on recruiting former DF staff. Fostly those with a technical skill but not always. They know that being bombarded with training courses away from home following induction (fully paid) is not something a former DF member will complain about. Being sent overseas at short notice for meetings too is not something they find a former DF member will find unusual either. After all that, relatively long shifts followed by times at home but an call is something a former soldier, airman or seaman will find offputting.
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  34. #19
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I think there is a tone deafness to why people are leaving - it will continue - the amount of tech jobs is not going to decrease and the pay is very good out there.
    The so called 'brain drain' has always been an issue but never to the degree where the government imposed cuts, refused to reinstate those cuts and then expect people to stay. In other times the DF used enhancements such as promotions and further education to keep people , but again there wasn't the pay issue.

    The conditions of those remaining are always going to be compromised because of those who have left and no amount of soft soaping will keep people in a job they can't afford to be in.

    DF pay should be competitive at least
    During the early to mid years of the crises , it didn't need to be as there were any other job for people without certain skills, the public service en masse stopped recruiting for 4 years and then only opened up to 'internships' which in unskilled roles still paid less than the DF.

    The wheel has turned and the DF now has to compete to get and retain people, and the first step has to be Core Pay.

    The DF is a shrinking organisation. It needs to play the ICTU game, to the letter of the law. If it doesnt need to cover for striking workers, it shouldn't. My own union learnt this the hard way. Be part of the bigger team, even if you'll never get to play in the game.
    100% agreed !
    Time for another break I think......

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  36. #20
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    If the DF threatened to withdraw all non security related ATCA / ATCP what would the reaction be?.... if you are going out with your hand out for something you need to have a big stick in the other to show you mean business
    Doesnít need to and shouldnít.

    The COS needs to go to the Minister and tell them that the DF will increasely not be able to respond and itís the truth



    Thats the kind of experience that PDFORRA need to bring to the table. The problem being the two tier system in the DF where Officer ranks would be unlikely to stand beside Other Ranks in any action.

    The method of representation needs to be revisited and aligned with the likes of the Public service unions who have made gains.
    to me PDFORRA isnít concerned with the most recent recruits who are the lowest paid

    Dev highlights a lot of internal reform packages which may or may not be feasible, what difference they will make is to be calculated at some point in the future, but for now all these points make no difference to the guy who hasn't a bob in his arse pocket.
    the point is that DoD control pay but much of what Iíve highlighted is free changes that DF could implement (go to DoD to implement) which would improve the lot of the soldier. It wouldnít put an extra cent is the pocket but it would make the job of those who remain easier (and encourage at least some to remain).

    The DF needs to be covered by the various acts regarding employment in their entirety without local management over riding them willy nilly.
    the Oireachtas needs to decide that

    If they are paid properly all the other issues will be resolved in time.
    Doubt that

    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    ( sorry Uniform allowance which is now taxed ffs )
    .
    WTF... itís an unvouched expense

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitŪ View Post
    Same thing happens my organisation. We may use the same service station as our colleagues in blue, having come in from working alongside them on the same checkpoint, taking the same abuse from public, wearing the same radios, only for GS to get one price and us to get another.
    The reason for this is simple. Should this station be victim of a robbery, will the cops rush to assist because they always get cheap coffee there? Of course they will, compared to the other one up the road that would prefer they get their coffee, pay full price and fork off. Obviously GS will treat all alerts with the same importance, but the forecourt owner may believe by giving GS cheap coffee they will give him priority, and will act as unpaid security staff during the dangerous hours, sipping their cheap coffee.
    you honestly believe thatís why? Itís because if they get a cheap coffee they will tell their colleagues and they will buy their paper, sandwich etc
    Last edited by DeV; 7th May 2018 at 23:57.

  37. #21
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    One word Gentlemen.

    Mutiny.

    Simple as. That's why the DF can't wield any serious power at pay talks,because to even talk about going on strike is to face a charge on inciting mutiny.So for all your pontificating about "PDFORRA should toe the ICTU Line" that's great. Until you end up in Jail for even suggesting it. Military law applies to PDF ALL the time.Even at PDFORRA meetings remember?

    Core pay is off the table as we are locked into LRA2,which drip feeds us tiny increases over 3 years and we can't look for anything more or we get slapped down by FEMPI. PDFORRA looked for a restoration of rent allowance recently(A measure that would have made a massive difference ).A side deal that the GRA and POA got as a carrot to sign up to LRA2. We got shot down by DPER citing FEMPI and "Cost increasing".

    So. As you can see our hands are tied. PDFORRA has won it's case to affiliate to ICTU in the EU Council. The Dept still won't ratify it despite the council upholding the Govts opposition to giving the DF the right to strike.A right we never looked for as it would be the rock we would perish on. All PDFORRA wanted was a seat at the table at pay talks.But NO. We had a gun put to our heads "Sign up to LRA2 or you will be hit with an immediate increment freeze,no pay restoration for three yearr and forget about making any submission at all to the PSPC as you won't be invited".
    Being pragmatists and having some bloody good negotiators at NEC level PDFORRA signed up as a shitty deal was better than nothing and at least they kept the door open.

    So Please Gentlemen don't preach to the Choir. As I said in my first post . Looking for extra money at this time is OFF the table. I have illustrated where small things can make a difference in the meantime.Like giving a discount to all Uniformed services if you are doing it at all. When some lads can't even afford a sandwich at lunchtime those couple of Euro still in their pocket would be appreciated believe me! And NO. 100 times NO. I am not blaming the GS or ambulance staff for our low pay.Merely pointing out that the DF are quite often the last line of Defence when everyone else downs tools.(Remember Aldi in Tallaght during storm Emma and how the GS got there or the patients taken from snowed in ambulances to hospital by DF drivers?) and should not be discriminated against.

    As for other unions hating on the DF. That's unfortunate but not something the DF can help. If the Government task the DF to maintain essential public services then the DF does what it has been ordered to do.Again to do otherwise is MUTINY!!

    So. Now we are all clear on where we stand can we perhaps get back to square one and put forward some out of the box ideas to make our peoples lives just a little easier?? Instead of preaching to the choir about a situation we can do f**k all about at the moment.IE PAY
    Last edited by apod; 7th May 2018 at 23:58.
    Infantry Corps - An L√°mh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  39. #22
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Just as an example of how shitty the DF get treated but how little things do make a difference to Morale.
    A buddy of mine was waiting in line behind a Cop in the local Topaz.Both were in uniform and this was a couple of days after Storm Ophelia where the DF were out helping the public 24/7.Both were buying coffee.The cop pays for his and leaves. My mate goes to the counter and is told by the server that the cost of his coffee is Ä1 as opposed to the normal Ä2.50. My buddy is chuffed and says thanks only for another assistant standing nearby to pass comment "That discount is only for Gardai and Ambulance Staff"...
    That's shite. In your mate's position, I'd have handed it back and told them to keep it (obviously wouldn't be able to say "shove it up your hole" in uniform!!!)
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  41. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    One word Gentlemen.

    Mutiny.

    Simple as. That's why the DF can't wield any serious power at pay talks,because to even talk about going on strike is to face a charge on inciting mutiny.So for all your pontificating about "PDFORRA should toe the ICTU Line" that's great. Until you end up in Jail for even suggesting it. Military law applies to PDF ALL the time.Even at PDFORRA meetings remember?

    Core pay is off the table as we are locked into LRA2,which drip feeds us tiny increases over 3 years and we can't look for anything more or we get slapped down by FEMPI. PDFORRA looked for a restoration of rent allowance recently(A measure that would have made a massive difference ).A side deal that the GRA and POA got as a carrot to sign up to LRA2. We got shot down by DPER citing FEMPI and "Cost increasing".

    So. As you can see our hands are tied. PDFORRA has won it's case to affiliate to ICTU in the EU Council. The Dept still won't ratify it despite the council upholding the Govts opposition to giving the DF the right to strike.A right we never looked for as it would be the rock we would perish on. All PDFORRA wanted was a seat at the table at pay talks.But NO. We had a gun put to our heads "Sign up to LRA2 or you will be hit with an immediate increment freeze,no pay restoration for three yearr and forget about making any submission at all to the PSPC as you won't be invited".
    Being pragmatists and having some bloody good negotiators at NEC level PDFORRA signed up as a shitty deal was better than nothing and at least they kept the door open.

    So Please Gentlemen don't preach to the Choir. As I said in my first post . Looking for extra money at this time is OFF the table. I have illustrated where small things can make a difference in the meantime.Like giving a discount to all Uniformed services if you are doing it at all. When some lads can't even afford a sandwich at lunchtime those couple of Euro still in their pocket would be appreciated believe me! And NO. 100 times NO. I am not blaming the GS or ambulance staff for our low pay.Merely pointing out that the DF are quite often the last line of Defence when everyone else downs tools.(Remember Aldi in Tallaght during storm Emma and how the GS got there or the patients taken from snowed in ambulances to hospital by DF drivers?) and should not be discriminated against.

    As for other unions hating on the DF. That's unfortunate but not something the DF can help. If the Government task the DF to maintain essential public services then the DF does what it has been ordered to do.Again to do otherwise is MUTINY!!

    So. Now we are all clear on where we stand can we perhaps get back to square one and put forward some out of the box ideas to make our peoples lives just a little easier?? Instead of preaching to the choir about a situation we can do f**k all about at the moment.IE PAY
    The gardai were in the same situation in 1998. They still cannot go on strike, to do so is illegal. They found a way. Blue Flu happened. They got what they wanted. Nobody was disciplined. No rule was broken. During the 1961 Macushla revolt, officers took names of gardai attending a meeting discussing how they would proceed to argue for better pay for junior members. Many were charged, some were dismissed. The end result was proper representation for Gardai, all dismissed were re-appointed.

    You are at a situation now where the strength is below the minimum declared by DF authorities to carry out its primary tasks. The DF can, if it choses to, say "we can no longer do the tasks required of us due to staffing."
    If the Adj of unit X responds to a request for assistance from local authorities in the negative because he/she has neither the staff or resources do you really think he'll end up on the mat? And who would have the job of telling the Adj that the resources aren't there?

    The Air corps did this already. They put crew safety before operational requirements. Top cover was requested, the Air Corps was unable to provide it. After the crash of Coastguard 116, the media and government all looked surprised and wondered "how could this happen", and "this will not do". But suddenly everyone knows the Air Corps are woefully under strength in core appointments. They learnt this from the Dh248 crash when operational requirements were put ahead of crew safety, with fatal results. But no heads rolled from that tragedy, and those responsible no doubt now hold nice civvy jobs in the aviation industry.
    However there is an attitude in the DF to do the job above all else. It is noble, but in the long term counter productive. It is down to bad leadership masquerading as good leadership.
    It took people suing the DF before its leaders decided to issue hearing protection. Prior to that it was assumed you couldnt sue the army for going deaf from the sound of firearms. Those who wore their own hearing protection, because they knew the risks, were often disciplined for doing so.
    It took a serious accident involving troops being transported by truck before the DF realised having people sitting unrestrained on a timber bench in the back of a moving vehicle was not a good idea. And this was a good 10-15 years years after the DF decided that having soldiers on escort sit in the cargo compartment of a 4x4 protected from the elements and other vehicles only by a sheet of ripped green canvas was no longer a good idea.

    The point is everything is subject to change, once someone realises it is a good idea. The only question is what next? The long duties that have become part and parcel of DF life should soon become a victim of the Working time directive.
    Your leaders do not always have your best interests at heart, many of them don't even realise this. Only those within the system can change that. Or you can continue the status quo.
    FEMPI is finished. The constant crowing of government about how the economy is thriving proves this.
    The DF families are doing great work at present raising awareness of their plight, and they should be fully supported by everyone in the DF. They are currently the only ones willing, and able to shout in your corner.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  43. #24
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Whatever way you justify it it is still Mutiny or Incitement to.

    I honestly believe that if we ever did down tools it would be the nail in the DF's coffin once and for all. The public,despite their apathy towards us,knows that when everyone else lets them down,including the GS on "Blue Flu" days,that the DF are there.It's an insurance policy.They hate paying for it but are damn glad they had it when needed but as soon as they get what they need from it they go back to bitching about it.If we loose that tiny shred of public confidence we are toast.

    You of all people should know that the GS are civilians at the end of the day and while governed by the Garda code it is still only a set of Internal rules. Military law is NOT.It is LAW.
    That is what we signed up to when we swore the oath.No if's, and's or but's.
    Yes you are right our management(not leaders.Leaders in the DF I can count on one hand) says yes too often.That is their way of keeping the DF relevant.Unfortunately it is a law of diminishing returns as we get smaller and smaller.Something is going to go badly wrong sooner rather than later.

    As for the WPDF.To say they are the only ones able to shout the DF's voice is insulting to every elected representative in PDFORRA and RACO.Who bust their asses to get a better lot for their membership.Also any changes that have been secured since 1991 have been through representation. If you are going to champion the WPDF be very careful as there is a lot going on behind the scenes there.

    Now. Can we PLEASE get back to coming up with fresh ideas instead of rehashing old arguments. We know where we are.It's S**T. What can we do to climb out of it? There were some good ideas in the NS recently RE Allowances and Tax credits. Anybody go anything good here?
    Last edited by apod; 8th May 2018 at 11:09.
    Infantry Corps - An L√°mh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  45. #25
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    I think simple stuff like longer term HR planning would be very much appreciated. Stop trying to fill appointments 6 weeks out from deployment. We know we are going to be filling appointments, fill them 1 year out, that way people can plan their lives, units can plan contingency and even if you are mandatory selected, you have a year to put your shit in place as opposed.to getting nabbed during the MRE

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