PDF retention

[HavocIRL]

God I miss D.E. Whenever you talked to him you KNEW he really,really cared.We were all like his kids and we would have followed him anywhere.

Never a truer statement

[spider pig]

An awful lot of my callsign Pte- sgts putting in for the AGS. Just fed up with the way things have gone

[Bravo20]

Which says it all really, as the AGSI are saying that their members are leaving because they are so poorly paid.

[morpheus]

catastrophic haemorrhaging is in full progress as we speak

[DeV]

There was previously some conversation regarding the legal basis of the Minister, Department and DF

This document gives some info
http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/Gov_Frame

[apod]

Hate to say it but I told you so.

[hptmurphy]

The organisational structure makes no mention of a 'Minister of State for the Department of Defence', only the 'Minister for Defence'. Would this signify that there is an intention to restore the department to a full minister rather than his lackey?

[DeV]

The organisational structure makes no mention of a 'Minister of State for the Department of Defence', only the 'Minister for Defence'. Would this signify that there is an intention to restore the department to a full minister rather than his lackey?

There is a full Minister. He is also An Taoiseach so therefore a junior is required

[expat01]

There is a need at this point for an administrative referendum to remove the absolute restriction on the number of full ministers from the constitution.

[TangoSierra]

There is a need at this point for an administrative referendum to remove the absolute restriction on the number of full ministers from the constitution.

I disagree. What's needed to is for current Ministers, Junior Ministers and Secretary Generals to be held accountable for their departments lack of performance.


When the DoDs website still lists Simon Coveney as the Minister for Defence it tells a lot about the Departments (lack of) professionalism, competence and work ethic.

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/do...257ED9003B75D5

[na grohmití]

There is a need at this point for an administrative referendum to remove the absolute restriction on the number of full ministers from the constitution.

No, all that happens then is the government create ministers for special interest groups to appease their coalition partners.
Minister for bogland
Minister for feminism
Minister for driving home from the pub after pints because you live in rural kerry.
Minister for private schools.
Minister for not paying tax and getting away with it.
etc

New portfolio have been created already which has pushed the Defence post aside. Strange that all the other departments couldn't manage without 2 ministers to do a job that one used to do, as well as having a junior minister, while defence has an absentee minister with a junior who pretends he is full minister.

[trellheim]

If Agriculture had been dealt with in this fashion ( and Ag's main function is to hand out grants, 95% of it should be in a SUSI type organization) there would have been blood on the streets.

[hptmurphy]

There is a full Minister. He is also An Taoiseach so therefore a junior is required

I'm well aware of that but it seems that the junior minister is actually running it with no declared interest from the Taoiseach

[na grohmití]

Even when Enda held the position he actually answered PQs when it suited him.

[Fantasia]

Not sure what having a Minister or Minister for State has to do with PDF retention though.

The organisation has changed so much since the reorg that unfortunately a lot of exers wouldnt recognise it. Personally I see the change to the promotion system as being responsible for a lot of it. Too much responsibility put on the individual to chase points, the perceived constant need to do courses or move to the next job to tick a box. No loyalty can be shown by NCOs as unit commanders can show none back

[apod]

Not sure what having a Minister or Minister for State has to do with PDF retention though.

The organisation has changed so much since the reorg that unfortunately a lot of exers wouldnt recognise it. Personally I see the change to the promotion system as being responsible for a lot of it. Too much responsibility put on the individual to chase points, the perceived constant need to do courses or move to the next job to tick a box. No loyalty can be shown by NCOs as unit commanders can show none back

100% Agree. Unit loyalty has been eroded.The NCO Corps in unit used to be the keepers of a units traditions.Now that is gone with the dodo.Out of my units SNCO's 7 are from outside of the unit.Worse again they are all from the same former unit so there is a group think starting to set in.And not in a good way either. Of course the flip side is they all have one foot in the unit and the other is itching to get back from whence they came.
Not good for the DF in the long run or my unit.
Now if that's my place what are other locations like.Much the same I reckon.
One good thing about the new system though is the cross polination and networking across the Brigade and wider DF. Chances are if you need something there is someone in another unit who has served in yours.

My solution? Keep the merit based promotion system but tweak it to give points for unit loyalty, and offer appointments not only on vacancies but on projected vacancies.Also we need to close the Infantry loophole to keep those damned lesser Corps out!!

[Fantasia]

I would scrap it for Cpl to Sgt, go back to the old way where a unit can reward their loyalty. In certain locations, the list is already depleted for Cpls anyway.

I would also very much restrict the points available for courses. Lads spending 15 - 20 weeks a year doing course are actually doing more harm to unit strengths than good.

I am surprised that PDFORRA are happy with the current set up.

[apod]

I would scrap it for Cpl to Sgt, go back to the old way where a unit can reward their loyalty.

No.The current system keeps promotions out of the hands of Units for good reason.Too many redresses in the past due to Favoritism.

I would also very much restrict the points available for courses. Lads spending 15 - 20 weeks a year doing course are actually doing more harm to unit strengths than good.

Agree. Award points for things like doing the Hotel instead for example or instructing at unit level on Recruit + 2-3* Cses.

I am surprised that PDFORRA are happy with the current set up.

They're not.

[hptmurphy]

Not sure what having a Minister or Minister for State has to do with PDF retention though

.

Minister for state spends to much time dodging straight questions and offering meaningful answers and the individual in question is absolutely loathsome and has hung the CoS out to dry , while the actual minister, An Taoiseach dosen't give a shit.

So to my mind how can you expect positive action when the actual minister is missing from the job and the minister of state is a weasel.?

Personally I see the change to the promotion system as being responsible for a lot of it. Too much responsibility put on the individual to chase points, the perceived constant need to do courses or move to the next job to tick a box

Careers ahead of loyalty to units. Should it be a prerequisite that a specific amount of time is spent at particular units and that course are unavailable without meeting that criteria?

[Fantasia]

Hotel is only available to some though.

A lot of very experienced NCOs have gone over the last few years as promotion was no longer a possibility.


How do you encourage unit loyalty in the current system? I am struggling to think of how to retain some of ours

[apod]

Should it be a prerequisite that a specific amount of time is spent at particular units and that course are unavailable without meeting that criteria?

You get points for serving in a unit on detachment for 90 days or greater. So lads from Cork or Limerick going to the Cadet school for a year(That's right a whole year) get the same as the guy from 1 MIC or 1 ACS going to the other side of the camp.
Also we have unit hopping going on in the DFTC and the Brigade HQ Locations.
People can go from unit to unit collecting points and not move outside their home station and the lads form single unit locations either move away to collect points or fall behind in the race.
Total bollocks.

[hptmurphy]

You get points for serving in a unit on detachment for 90 days or greater. So lads from Cork or Limerick going to the Cadet school for a year(That's right a whole year) get the same as the guy from 1 MIC or 1 ACS going to the other side of the camp.
Also we have unit hopping going on in the DFTC and the Brigade HQ Locations.
People can go from unit to unit collecting points and not move outside their home station and the lads form single unit locations either move away to collect points or fall behind in the race.
Total bollocks.

I'm not sure if this is still the case in the UK, but it was a few years ago where Cadets were 'sponsored' by units prior to entry and would have to spend 'x' amount with that unit up to a specific rank before being able to move on. Again the objective being to keep people in units and make sure that the development of their careers is beneficial to the unit as well as them selves.

The same could be made to apply to NCOs where if you are sent on an NCOs course from unit 'a' you are obliged to spend 'x' a mount of years with that unit before moving up a rank or indeed transferring to a nother unit.

This could improve cohesion between the ranks which seems to be sadly lacking according to some of the posts here. If officers are working for their men as opposed to twaddling off on their own career path jumping between post and appointments, it could solve some issues.

Again reading between the lines someone in the DF seems to have adopted promotional models around 'lean' processes and while the have merit in some applications, eveidently its not working for the masses in the DF.

Promotion on merit, plus ability as opposed to filling required posts and academic intellect was always the way in the DF,

It would seem the system is badly broken, but those who have benefited from the change are hardly going to admit that.

[apod]

Hotel is only available to some though.

A lot of very experienced NCOs have gone over the last few years as promotion was no longer a possibility.


How do you encourage unit loyalty in the current system? I am struggling to think of how to retain some of ours

Perhaps a system where you accrue point the longer you stay in a unit?? To discourage the people who only move to get promoted then have one foot out the door the whole time they are in situ and the minute a vacancy comes up back in their old location they are gone like shit off a shovel.

I know one guy who, when the Bks was closed, moved to another unit closer to his home location rather than move back to Bn HQ.No unit loyalty there.
Of course he had no problem then coming back into the fold once a promotion opened up back in his old unit. The kicker was that another vacancy soon opened up at his new rank level in the Bks he had ran off to so he legged it again and ended up blocking a guy who was originally from that unit ,and who had to leave to get promoted,getting back!!

The new system makes a mockery of the so called DF values of selflessness and integrity.

[DeV]

But at the same time if he can’t afford to put petrol in the car... to get to the new unit loc?


My understanding (could be very simplistic) is that you apply for the rank to be promoted to (not the location, unit or vacancy) am I right?

How does that work for inter-corps and tech promotions?
So you could have a new Sqn Sgt who has spend all their career in Ordnance for example or a new infantry Sgt going into the AC ?

[Fantasia]

No Dev you are not correct.

You apply for promotion, stating what units / locations you are willing to serve.

You can only be promoted into an appointment that you are qualified to fill. The list of appointments & qualifications is listed in Annex XYZ to Admin Instr Part 10.

In the example you cited, the Sqn Sgt appointment would have the Cavalry Standard Course listed and you can only do that as a cav NCO.

The problem is with line vacancies in Inf Bns, HQs and in a lot of cases the Air Corps where everyone seems to run to given half a chance