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  • PDF retention

    Have a go at solving the woes of the DF.

    You never know who is listening!!

  • #2
    IMHO we have a few options.

    1/ Keep going with the current Tactic IE Recruitment.Which we know is not working.

    2/ Throw money at the problem. A non runner thanks to DPER and DoD.

    3/ Start coming up with ideas that cost nothing but will show we value our people and understand their issues. These ideas might be difficult to implement due to dinosaurs at all levels of Command/Management complaining about how "That's not how we do things".

    I reckon it's the small things that make the difference.Like not having our troops have to wait months just to get a pair of boots or a shirt when the uniform on their back is falling apart or perhaps looking at Start times on a Monday and knock off times on a Friday to take account of the fact that in this day and age alot of our troops are travelling long distances just to get home or get to work and may not be able to afford cars.

    Subsidised childcare?

    Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?

    Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.

    Make our people feel valued and looked after.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

    Comment


    • #3
      Look at the odf, redresses etc and actually fix the issues rather than having the same issues over and over again.

      One way to do that is to rewrite DFRs, Admin/Logs Instructions to make the DF easier and more efficient to admin (see above)

      Deliver pay promptly. Why do people have to wait months for duty money? My employer pays 250 people (equivalent to a Coy plus). The managers do the hours by 10am Monday, they pay is correct wages the following Wednesday (ie a back week). How many people work in payroll? one (she also does the salaries for another 100+ on a monthly basis).

      Comment


      • #4
        Promotion based on meritocracy and managerial/leadership ability.

        Increased pay scales / creation of warrant officer rank for technical appointments to allow for technical mastery while insulating from management responsibilities.

        Firing of toxic leadership. Firing of unsatisfactory performance. 360 degree feedback, unit climate surveys.

        Subsidised / provision of base accomodation for families not just singles.

        Broadening assignments/secondment with multinational partners/private industry (for all ranks not just officers)

        Holistic renumeration package: private health care scheme for members (all ranks), food, greater educational training access

        Comment


        • #5
          Retention is difficult as the initiative that retains one person may well drive another out. More overseas, great for the young lad recently recruited to get on his first trip, could drive out the fitter Sgt expected to tog out for his 3rd trip in 5 years.

          A lot of the issues in the climate survey are leadership based. How can the Pte in 28Bn and 1 BAR be paid the same but have such different attitudes in the climate survey? The leadership climate that has been allowed to foster or fester in a given location. In some units getting charged with absence is almost a right of passage, others you are an embarrassment to the organisation.

          Making people of all ranks feel valued and appreciated is the way forward. Whether that is having a local arrangement that the Cpl that comes in at 7 every morning to beat traffic is given the nod to head off at 4 if things are quiet or it is having is having the ability to forecast duties more than 2 weeks ahead so that someone can plan their life.

          With NCOs on the road a lot more now and senior NCOs living in in almost every location, something a simple as good accomodation for a BSM / CQ living in is not too much to ask
          Last edited by Fantasia; 5 May 2018, 01:17.

          Comment


          • #6
            Am in total agreement with the flexibility route. If that and pay were sorted, those two alone could go a long way to aiding retention.

            Reduce regimental duties from 24 to 12 hours would be another biggie, IMHO. Although be careful what you wish for, would troops be OK with the probable resultant halving in duty pay as a result?

            Was speaking to a PDF C/S of my acquaintance. Said there is talk of extending the upper age limit from 50 to 60 for Sgts and above. Unsure how this would apply to Ptes and Cpls.

            Not surprised there is a huge discrepancy in the climate surveys between 1 BAR and 28 Bn. The former is in the Bde HQ location, the latter is at the outer extremity of their Bde AO yet their lads are getting pulled to Dublin for a week at a time to do duties?? Hardly conducive to family life or good morale...
            "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
              Retention is difficult as the initiative that retains one person may well drive another out. More overseas, great for the young lad recently recruited to get on his first trip, could drive out the fitter Sgt expected to tog out for his 3rd trip in 5 years.
              There lies another issue, not training enough people to carry out the jobs required.
              Courses that will get lads overseas are always oversubscribed, but there is still shortages of trained personnel.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by apod View Post
                IMHO we have a few options.

                1/ Keep going with the current Tactic IE Recruitment.Which we know is not working.

                2/ Throw money at the problem. A non runner thanks to DPER and DoD.

                3/ Start coming up with ideas that cost nothing but will show we value our people and understand their issues. These ideas might be difficult to implement due to dinosaurs at all levels of Command/Management complaining about how "That's not how we do things".

                I reckon it's the small things that make the difference.Like not having our troops have to wait months just to get a pair of boots or a shirt when the uniform on their back is falling apart or perhaps looking at Start times on a Monday and knock off times on a Friday to take account of the fact that in this day and age alot of our troops are travelling long distances just to get home or get to work and may not be able to afford cars.

                Subsidised childcare?

                Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?

                Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.

                Make our people feel valued and looked after.
                And meanwhile back in the real world.......

                For all intents and purposes the DF are civil servants even though while not treated equally they fall under the same umbrella. Anything 'extra' that is offered will fall under scrutiny of the public service unions and be demanded for their members and therefore would incur additional costs,....not going to happen.

                Even if the DF were to get a special status within the public sector all these things would be seen as benefit in kind and would attract taxation once thresholds had been reached. Might actually cause more problems than anything else.

                The intake vs retention thing is not seen as a DF problem by politicians, but as a DF problem. The minister will say that he is providing funding and permission to recruit, its the DF's issue to retain them, the HSE has the same problems. The ministers brief is to be seen to keep feeding bodies into the machine while keeping numbers on the live register down.

                Now the bigger problem,...Public Perception.... Joe Public doesn't give a fcuk except when it snows or floods!

                Under the categories of not giving a fcuk....

                Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.....most of the big retailers no longer give their own staff discounts any more!!!!

                Subsidised childcare?..........shouldn't everybody get it?

                Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?..........Core Pay is the issue .....

                Make our people feel valued and looked after.............by whom their leaders.........?

                Increase in Core Pay

                Security of tenure

                Pay and Conditions

                These will solve all your issues in a heart beat. How do you get them? Need to start pushing the envelope like AGS did and see how the politicos will act...
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • #9
                  Core pay is a serious issue but it is far from the only one.

                  If line pay was quadrupled in the morning those other serious issues would still exist.

                  While pay needs to be absolutely kept on the table, the other issues need to be addressed. Some of these a zero or little cost and some will actually save money and resources. They will have a positive effect on the morale and efficiency of the DF.

                  These wouldn’t fix the problem but would make the job itself easier

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    And meanwhile back in the real world.......

                    For all intents and purposes the DF are civil servants even though while not treated equally they fall under the same umbrella. Anything 'extra' that is offered will fall under scrutiny of the public service unions and be demanded for their members and therefore would incur additional costs,....not going to happen.

                    Even if the DF were to get a special status within the public sector all these things would be seen as benefit in kind and would attract taxation once thresholds had been reached. Might actually cause more problems than anything else.

                    The intake vs retention thing is not seen as a DF problem by politicians, but as a DF problem. The minister will say that he is providing funding and permission to recruit, its the DF's issue to retain them, the HSE has the same problems. The ministers brief is to be seen to keep feeding bodies into the machine while keeping numbers on the live register down.

                    Now the bigger problem,...Public Perception.... Joe Public doesn't give a fcuk except when it snows or floods!

                    Under the categories of not giving a fcuk....

                    Negotiate with the retail sector for discounts for serving personnel.....most of the big retailers no longer give their own staff discounts any more!!!!

                    Subsidised childcare?..........shouldn't everybody get it?

                    Easier access to Subsistence allowance and PTR?..........Core Pay is the issue .....

                    Make our people feel valued and looked after.............by whom their leaders.........?

                    Increase in Core Pay

                    Security of tenure

                    Pay and Conditions

                    These will solve all your issues in a heart beat. How do you get them? Need to start pushing the envelope like AGS did and see how the politicos will act...
                    Tell me something.

                    Did you actually read my post before going off on another of your HSE Unions vs the rest of the public sector rants??

                    What part of "cost increasing" from DPER and DoD do you not get? (Yet the DF handed back millions last year).

                    I work in the DF day to day.You don't. I see the problems. You don't. I have to deal with trying to motivate people to do a job they feel underpaid and undervalued for .Where they get platitudes from our political overlords for when they step up when the country needs them,while at the same time being slated by every journo who needs airtime or column inches for being a waste of money.

                    So.I'll tell you what.Go away and come up with ideas to fix that bastion of competence and integrity that you work for and leave this thread for those who might just come up with a good idea to fix the problems that our troops suffer every day.


                    PS: While your post is obviously rooted in jealousy that another PUBLIC sector (Only Officers are Civil service BTW) group might get something your mob might not.Consider this.
                    The two groups that have been prioritised by the Public service Pay commission are???
                    Guess who??

                    The DF AND NURSES. The DF are the lowest paid public servants BTW so if we get ANYTHING we MORE than deserve it.
                    Last edited by apod; 7 May 2018, 12:30.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Looking at part 2 of the Climate Survey, my recommendations:
                      - look at increasing the duration of the cadetship to include training which is currently done post commissioning
                      - targeted recruitment of holders of specific degrees (they are currently doing this for Ord & Engr)
                      - use the CFR scheme more often specifically to fill tech vacancies
                      - increased modularising of longer career Cses
                      - reduced dependence on sending newly commissioned school leavers to university (unless specifically required for DF needs)
                      - longer rotations of officers
                      - delegate much of DoD Personnel Policy to the DF
                      - annual leave to be facilitated better
                      - healthier options for rations
                      - look at changing overseas commitment to a single larger Bn (rather than 2 Inf Gps)
                      - change the SSC for the NS to a longer duration
                      - NCO input into junior ranks 667s
                      - minimum (enforceable) 6 months notice of redeployment
                      - much improved notification & selection for courses
                      - payment of pay, allowances etc to be completed promptly
                      - reform of (non-career) courses requirements for promotion
                      - proper simplified (Corps/role specific) career development structure
                      - survey of preferred location for those requesting transfers (potential swapping of personnel)
                      - reduced bureaucracy to make admin easier, more efficient and timely

                      That’s from the first 109 pages of part 2 of the climate survey, all zero/minimal cost (that would make a real difference), some may create further issues or require time to implement.

                      None of which would solve pay but they would improve issues

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The current NCO promotion system is broken and it is driving a lot of excellent NCOs out.

                        I would drop the Cpl - Sgt competition from the current system and leave it for SNCO appts only.

                        I think we will see a move in DF pay in the not too distant future but it will be done through an increase in MSA rather than basic pay so that it doesnt impact other sectors

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Apod....

                          I had a long a detailed response typed up but I deleted it... you're right in your own mind.. Knowing your mindset ,what ever I say on the issue is wrong..so why bother.
                          Last edited by hptmurphy; 7 May 2018, 14:59.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            Apod....

                            I had a long a detailed response typed up but I deleted it... you're right in your own mind.. Knowing your mindset ,what ever I say on the issue is wrong..so why bother.
                            Gotta love that one. A thread is started to come up with ideas to try and solve a major issue,where the first few posts were positive.

                            You come on the thread and act like a dismissive smartarse and get called out on it. Then you turn it around on me for calling you out?? Some cheek. A couple of points though.

                            1/ You know nothing about my "Mindset".We have never met,and with your "everything is a pissing contest"attitude I hope we never do.

                            2/ It's not a case of saying "Whatever i say is wrong" like a scolded child. You ARE wrong .Simple as.

                            Just as an example of how shitty the DF get treated but how little things do make a difference to Morale.
                            A buddy of mine was waiting in line behind a Cop in the local Topaz.Both were in uniform and this was a couple of days after Storm Ophelia where the DF were out helping the public 24/7.Both were buying coffee.The cop pays for his and leaves. My mate goes to the counter and is told by the server that the cost of his coffee is €1 as opposed to the normal €2.50. My buddy is chuffed and says thanks only for another assistant standing nearby to pass comment "That discount is only for Gardai and Ambulance Staff".

                            The same gardai and Ambulance staff who rely on us to get them to where they need to go when Storms ground their fleets.Neither group have I ever seen filling thousand of sandbags for peoples houses or wading through dangerous levels of water to evacuate people ,man pumps outside their houses all night or ferry dialysis patients to hospital and back when the rst of the Emergency services ground to a halt.

                            So.Yeah.My mate left there feeling pretty shitty to say the least. So you can keep your indignation thanks. Back in the real world indeed.
                            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              ust as an example of how shitty the DF get treated but how little things do make a difference to Morale.
                              A buddy of mine was waiting in line behind a Cop in the local Topaz.Both were in uniform and this was a couple of days after Storm Ophelia where the DF were out helping the public 24/7.Both were buying coffee.The cop pays for his and leaves. My mate goes to the counter and is told by the server that the cost of his coffee is €1 as opposed to the normal €2.50. My buddy is chuffed and says thanks only for another assistant standing nearby to pass comment "That discount is only for Gardai and Ambulance Staff".

                              The same gardai and Ambulance staff who rely on us to get them to where they need to go when Storms ground their fleets.Neither group have I ever seen filling thousand of sandbags for peoples houses or wading through dangerous levels of water to evacuate people ,man pumps outside their houses all night or ferry dialysis patients to hospital and back when the rst of the Emergency services ground to a halt.

                              So.Yeah.My mate left there feeling pretty shitty to say the least. So you can keep your indignation thanks. Back in the real world indeed.
                              You proved my point... No one outside the DF especially Joe Public gives a shit........

                              and things like discounts...why would they?

                              Why have AGS begun to get actual restoration and improvements and why do the politicians?

                              .. because they are prepared to take action!

                              My own stance, yes pay conditions etc need to be restored......my experience.... they are not going to hand it to you without a serious fight.........but you have to be realistic and know what the pitfalls are and what will and won't be given up.

                              If the DF threatened to withdraw all non security related ATCA / ATCP what would the reaction be?.... if you are going out with your hand out for something you need to have a big stick in the other to show you mean business

                              Fantasia has echoed my sentiment on knock on effect.....

                              Its not about me, I have unions that will take action when they see fit.... the state of the HSE is well beyond my control, but from some years of having to sit around the negotiating table as management I know what the Unions will go after, what they will stay away from and what they will fight.

                              Thats the kind of experience that PDFORRA need to bring to the table. The problem being the two tier system in the DF where Officer ranks would be unlikely to stand beside Other Ranks in any action.

                              The method of representation needs to be revisited and aligned with the likes of the Public service unions who have made gains.

                              I'm not pro union, I don't like them, I never wanted to be in one, but I have seen what they have done for their members and like it or not it must be recognised.

                              You will not get anymore than other Public sector employee will get either in pay restoration of benefits so what needs to be target is a basic minimum packages.

                              Dev highlights a lot of internal reform packages which may or may not be feasible, what difference they will make is to be calculated at some point in the future, but for now all these points make no difference to the guy who hasn't a bob in his arse pocket.

                              If the Gardai win the right to strike at what ever court they have brought it to.. thats where the DF need to go. The ranks thing needs to be over come and they whole DF needs to fight to achieve basic rights...

                              The DF needs to be covered by the various acts regarding employment in their entirety without local management over riding them willy nilly.

                              To be able to disregard the Scandanavians or the Dutch who have actually unions in their forces and get idealistic about how the Irish Soldier conducts himself is not putting bread on the table. Is there the will for a seed change?

                              If not the DF will always be the poor relation depending on the handouts rather than actually being able to fight their own corner.

                              And yes you are probably right, I know little of you and your day to day issues in your job, but I do know that you work with people... I work with people and they all have the same issues... its just which end of the scale they are at and what the mechanisms are to deal with their problems. If they are paid properly all the other issues will be resolved in time.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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