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  • #16
    Pay was a joke for the PDF in the Haddington Road and Lansdowne road agreements ; they were not invited to the negotiations - either PDFORRA or RACO because the DOD are terrified of causing a knock-on effect.

    As Fantasia says you may see this being done through allowances but that is in no way a fix. RDF suck even worse because we get PDF pay less 10% with no allowances ( sorry Uniform allowance which is now taxed ffs )

    I think there is a tone deafness to why people are leaving - it will continue - the amount of tech jobs is not going to decrease and the pay is very good out there. DF could compete on accomodation if it built family lines - the Brits and the Americans do well with this to compensate for the pay, it also fosters a lot of family spirit. We used to until we lost sight of that.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

    Comment


    • #17
      Recent PQ on the matter
      In 2017, under my direction, the Department of Defence brought issues of recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces to the attention of the Public Sector Pay Commission (PSPC). As a direct result of that initiative the PSPC is now beginning an in-depth evidence based examination of those issues.

      The Public Service Pay Commission has commenced this work and has requested statistical data and evidence from my Department. My Department has been working in close collaboration with Military management with the aim of preparing the material requested. The Military authorities have produced a paper. This is being considered by my Department having regard to the data and information requested.

      My Department has forwarded an initial tranche of information to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in relation to Air Corps pilots. Further material in relation to the challenges in the Defence sector will be submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in the coming weeks as the collation of data and information is completed.

      The Public Service Pay Commission is due to complete its exercise in the second half of 2018. The findings and proposals arising will be considered at that time.
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

      Comment


      • #18
        Same thing happens my organisation. We may use the same service station as our colleagues in blue, having come in from working alongside them on the same checkpoint, taking the same abuse from public, wearing the same radios, only for GS to get one price and us to get another.
        The reason for this is simple. Should this station be victim of a robbery, will the cops rush to assist because they always get cheap coffee there? Of course they will, compared to the other one up the road that would prefer they get their coffee, pay full price and fork off. Obviously GS will treat all alerts with the same importance, but the forecourt owner may believe by giving GS cheap coffee they will give him priority, and will act as unpaid security staff during the dangerous hours, sipping their cheap coffee.
        WHat will the army do for the forecourt? Sandbags? Won't matter, they'll have no customers then anyway.
        You seem to be blaming the GS and Ambulance staff for your low pay. This is exactly what the government want. They, and certain elements of the media have been seeking to divide the ES workers from the commencement of pay talks, pitching the private sector against the public sector, and then pitting the Public sector workers against each other. ES unions are particularly bitter against DF rep orgs too, as it is clear that should any of them decide to take strike action, the DF will cover the gap, with no objection from the DF reps. (for whatever reason).
        The DF is a shrinking organisation. It needs to play the ICTU game, to the letter of the law. If it doesnt need to cover for striking workers, it shouldn't. My own union learnt this the hard way. Be part of the bigger team, even if you'll never get to play in the game.

        You say throwing money at the problem is a non runner because of DPER. Why so? DPER is in the process of reluctantly giving pay restoration to most other union who faced cuts during the financial crisis. The DF suffered more than most as in addition to pay cuts which came from an already lor start point, there was also cost saving measures which ended up costing the individual member of the DF twice, be it through reduced availability of extra pay allowances, or having an increased commute with additional unpaid unsocial hours. You know the financial hardships the members of the DF face daily. Do you not think improving this situation would help retention?
        I'm sure most are considering the jump because there are better financial rewards outside the main gate. DF pay should be competitive at least. If your mates are working 4 12 hour shifts in a factory with less skills than you, but earning an extra 15K a year, it is difficult to remain for just loyalty to the job.
        One Multinational in Cork prides itself on recruiting former DF staff. Fostly those with a technical skill but not always. They know that being bombarded with training courses away from home following induction (fully paid) is not something a former DF member will complain about. Being sent overseas at short notice for meetings too is not something they find a former DF member will find unusual either. After all that, relatively long shifts followed by times at home but an call is something a former soldier, airman or seaman will find offputting.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

        Comment


        • #19
          I think there is a tone deafness to why people are leaving - it will continue - the amount of tech jobs is not going to decrease and the pay is very good out there.
          The so called 'brain drain' has always been an issue but never to the degree where the government imposed cuts, refused to reinstate those cuts and then expect people to stay. In other times the DF used enhancements such as promotions and further education to keep people , but again there wasn't the pay issue.

          The conditions of those remaining are always going to be compromised because of those who have left and no amount of soft soaping will keep people in a job they can't afford to be in.

          DF pay should be competitive at least
          During the early to mid years of the crises , it didn't need to be as there were any other job for people without certain skills, the public service en masse stopped recruiting for 4 years and then only opened up to 'internships' which in unskilled roles still paid less than the DF.

          The wheel has turned and the DF now has to compete to get and retain people, and the first step has to be Core Pay.

          The DF is a shrinking organisation. It needs to play the ICTU game, to the letter of the law. If it doesnt need to cover for striking workers, it shouldn't. My own union learnt this the hard way. Be part of the bigger team, even if you'll never get to play in the game.
          100% agreed !
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            If the DF threatened to withdraw all non security related ATCA / ATCP what would the reaction be?.... if you are going out with your hand out for something you need to have a big stick in the other to show you mean business
            Doesn’t need to and shouldn’t.

            The COS needs to go to the Minister and tell them that the DF will increasely not be able to respond and it’s the truth



            Thats the kind of experience that PDFORRA need to bring to the table. The problem being the two tier system in the DF where Officer ranks would be unlikely to stand beside Other Ranks in any action.

            The method of representation needs to be revisited and aligned with the likes of the Public service unions who have made gains.
            to me PDFORRA isn’t concerned with the most recent recruits who are the lowest paid

            Dev highlights a lot of internal reform packages which may or may not be feasible, what difference they will make is to be calculated at some point in the future, but for now all these points make no difference to the guy who hasn't a bob in his arse pocket.
            the point is that DoD control pay but much of what I’ve highlighted is free changes that DF could implement (go to DoD to implement) which would improve the lot of the soldier. It wouldn’t put an extra cent is the pocket but it would make the job of those who remain easier (and encourage at least some to remain).

            The DF needs to be covered by the various acts regarding employment in their entirety without local management over riding them willy nilly.
            the Oireachtas needs to decide that

            If they are paid properly all the other issues will be resolved in time.
            Doubt that

            Originally posted by trellheim View Post
            ( sorry Uniform allowance which is now taxed ffs )
            .
            WTF... it’s an unvouched expense

            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
            Same thing happens my organisation. We may use the same service station as our colleagues in blue, having come in from working alongside them on the same checkpoint, taking the same abuse from public, wearing the same radios, only for GS to get one price and us to get another.
            The reason for this is simple. Should this station be victim of a robbery, will the cops rush to assist because they always get cheap coffee there? Of course they will, compared to the other one up the road that would prefer they get their coffee, pay full price and fork off. Obviously GS will treat all alerts with the same importance, but the forecourt owner may believe by giving GS cheap coffee they will give him priority, and will act as unpaid security staff during the dangerous hours, sipping their cheap coffee.
            you honestly believe that’s why? It’s because if they get a cheap coffee they will tell their colleagues and they will buy their paper, sandwich etc
            Last edited by DeV; 7 May 2018, 23:57.

            Comment


            • #21
              One word Gentlemen.

              Mutiny.

              Simple as. That's why the DF can't wield any serious power at pay talks,because to even talk about going on strike is to face a charge on inciting mutiny.So for all your pontificating about "PDFORRA should toe the ICTU Line" that's great. Until you end up in Jail for even suggesting it. Military law applies to PDF ALL the time.Even at PDFORRA meetings remember?

              Core pay is off the table as we are locked into LRA2,which drip feeds us tiny increases over 3 years and we can't look for anything more or we get slapped down by FEMPI. PDFORRA looked for a restoration of rent allowance recently(A measure that would have made a massive difference ).A side deal that the GRA and POA got as a carrot to sign up to LRA2. We got shot down by DPER citing FEMPI and "Cost increasing".

              So. As you can see our hands are tied. PDFORRA has won it's case to affiliate to ICTU in the EU Council. The Dept still won't ratify it despite the council upholding the Govts opposition to giving the DF the right to strike.A right we never looked for as it would be the rock we would perish on. All PDFORRA wanted was a seat at the table at pay talks.But NO. We had a gun put to our heads "Sign up to LRA2 or you will be hit with an immediate increment freeze,no pay restoration for three yearr and forget about making any submission at all to the PSPC as you won't be invited".
              Being pragmatists and having some bloody good negotiators at NEC level PDFORRA signed up as a shitty deal was better than nothing and at least they kept the door open.

              So Please Gentlemen don't preach to the Choir. As I said in my first post . Looking for extra money at this time is OFF the table. I have illustrated where small things can make a difference in the meantime.Like giving a discount to all Uniformed services if you are doing it at all. When some lads can't even afford a sandwich at lunchtime those couple of Euro still in their pocket would be appreciated believe me! And NO. 100 times NO. I am not blaming the GS or ambulance staff for our low pay.Merely pointing out that the DF are quite often the last line of Defence when everyone else downs tools.(Remember Aldi in Tallaght during storm Emma and how the GS got there or the patients taken from snowed in ambulances to hospital by DF drivers?) and should not be discriminated against.

              As for other unions hating on the DF. That's unfortunate but not something the DF can help. If the Government task the DF to maintain essential public services then the DF does what it has been ordered to do.Again to do otherwise is MUTINY!!

              So. Now we are all clear on where we stand can we perhaps get back to square one and put forward some out of the box ideas to make our peoples lives just a little easier?? Instead of preaching to the choir about a situation we can do f**k all about at the moment.IE PAY
              Last edited by apod; 7 May 2018, 23:58.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by apod View Post
                Just as an example of how shitty the DF get treated but how little things do make a difference to Morale.
                A buddy of mine was waiting in line behind a Cop in the local Topaz.Both were in uniform and this was a couple of days after Storm Ophelia where the DF were out helping the public 24/7.Both were buying coffee.The cop pays for his and leaves. My mate goes to the counter and is told by the server that the cost of his coffee is €1 as opposed to the normal €2.50. My buddy is chuffed and says thanks only for another assistant standing nearby to pass comment "That discount is only for Gardai and Ambulance Staff"...
                That's shite. In your mate's position, I'd have handed it back and told them to keep it (obviously wouldn't be able to say "shove it up your hole" in uniform!!!)
                "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by apod View Post
                  One word Gentlemen.

                  Mutiny.

                  Simple as. That's why the DF can't wield any serious power at pay talks,because to even talk about going on strike is to face a charge on inciting mutiny.So for all your pontificating about "PDFORRA should toe the ICTU Line" that's great. Until you end up in Jail for even suggesting it. Military law applies to PDF ALL the time.Even at PDFORRA meetings remember?

                  Core pay is off the table as we are locked into LRA2,which drip feeds us tiny increases over 3 years and we can't look for anything more or we get slapped down by FEMPI. PDFORRA looked for a restoration of rent allowance recently(A measure that would have made a massive difference ).A side deal that the GRA and POA got as a carrot to sign up to LRA2. We got shot down by DPER citing FEMPI and "Cost increasing".

                  So. As you can see our hands are tied. PDFORRA has won it's case to affiliate to ICTU in the EU Council. The Dept still won't ratify it despite the council upholding the Govts opposition to giving the DF the right to strike.A right we never looked for as it would be the rock we would perish on. All PDFORRA wanted was a seat at the table at pay talks.But NO. We had a gun put to our heads "Sign up to LRA2 or you will be hit with an immediate increment freeze,no pay restoration for three yearr and forget about making any submission at all to the PSPC as you won't be invited".
                  Being pragmatists and having some bloody good negotiators at NEC level PDFORRA signed up as a shitty deal was better than nothing and at least they kept the door open.

                  So Please Gentlemen don't preach to the Choir. As I said in my first post . Looking for extra money at this time is OFF the table. I have illustrated where small things can make a difference in the meantime.Like giving a discount to all Uniformed services if you are doing it at all. When some lads can't even afford a sandwich at lunchtime those couple of Euro still in their pocket would be appreciated believe me! And NO. 100 times NO. I am not blaming the GS or ambulance staff for our low pay.Merely pointing out that the DF are quite often the last line of Defence when everyone else downs tools.(Remember Aldi in Tallaght during storm Emma and how the GS got there or the patients taken from snowed in ambulances to hospital by DF drivers?) and should not be discriminated against.

                  As for other unions hating on the DF. That's unfortunate but not something the DF can help. If the Government task the DF to maintain essential public services then the DF does what it has been ordered to do.Again to do otherwise is MUTINY!!

                  So. Now we are all clear on where we stand can we perhaps get back to square one and put forward some out of the box ideas to make our peoples lives just a little easier?? Instead of preaching to the choir about a situation we can do f**k all about at the moment.IE PAY
                  The gardai were in the same situation in 1998. They still cannot go on strike, to do so is illegal. They found a way. Blue Flu happened. They got what they wanted. Nobody was disciplined. No rule was broken. During the 1961 Macushla revolt, officers took names of gardai attending a meeting discussing how they would proceed to argue for better pay for junior members. Many were charged, some were dismissed. The end result was proper representation for Gardai, all dismissed were re-appointed.

                  You are at a situation now where the strength is below the minimum declared by DF authorities to carry out its primary tasks. The DF can, if it choses to, say "we can no longer do the tasks required of us due to staffing."
                  If the Adj of unit X responds to a request for assistance from local authorities in the negative because he/she has neither the staff or resources do you really think he'll end up on the mat? And who would have the job of telling the Adj that the resources aren't there?

                  The Air corps did this already. They put crew safety before operational requirements. Top cover was requested, the Air Corps was unable to provide it. After the crash of Coastguard 116, the media and government all looked surprised and wondered "how could this happen", and "this will not do". But suddenly everyone knows the Air Corps are woefully under strength in core appointments. They learnt this from the Dh248 crash when operational requirements were put ahead of crew safety, with fatal results. But no heads rolled from that tragedy, and those responsible no doubt now hold nice civvy jobs in the aviation industry.
                  However there is an attitude in the DF to do the job above all else. It is noble, but in the long term counter productive. It is down to bad leadership masquerading as good leadership.
                  It took people suing the DF before its leaders decided to issue hearing protection. Prior to that it was assumed you couldnt sue the army for going deaf from the sound of firearms. Those who wore their own hearing protection, because they knew the risks, were often disciplined for doing so.
                  It took a serious accident involving troops being transported by truck before the DF realised having people sitting unrestrained on a timber bench in the back of a moving vehicle was not a good idea. And this was a good 10-15 years years after the DF decided that having soldiers on escort sit in the cargo compartment of a 4x4 protected from the elements and other vehicles only by a sheet of ripped green canvas was no longer a good idea.

                  The point is everything is subject to change, once someone realises it is a good idea. The only question is what next? The long duties that have become part and parcel of DF life should soon become a victim of the Working time directive.
                  Your leaders do not always have your best interests at heart, many of them don't even realise this. Only those within the system can change that. Or you can continue the status quo.
                  FEMPI is finished. The constant crowing of government about how the economy is thriving proves this.
                  The DF families are doing great work at present raising awareness of their plight, and they should be fully supported by everyone in the DF. They are currently the only ones willing, and able to shout in your corner.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Whatever way you justify it it is still Mutiny or Incitement to.

                    I honestly believe that if we ever did down tools it would be the nail in the DF's coffin once and for all. The public,despite their apathy towards us,knows that when everyone else lets them down,including the GS on "Blue Flu" days,that the DF are there.It's an insurance policy.They hate paying for it but are damn glad they had it when needed but as soon as they get what they need from it they go back to bitching about it.If we loose that tiny shred of public confidence we are toast.

                    You of all people should know that the GS are civilians at the end of the day and while governed by the Garda code it is still only a set of Internal rules. Military law is NOT.It is LAW.
                    That is what we signed up to when we swore the oath.No if's, and's or but's.
                    Yes you are right our management(not leaders.Leaders in the DF I can count on one hand) says yes too often.That is their way of keeping the DF relevant.Unfortunately it is a law of diminishing returns as we get smaller and smaller.Something is going to go badly wrong sooner rather than later.

                    As for the WPDF.To say they are the only ones able to shout the DF's voice is insulting to every elected representative in PDFORRA and RACO.Who bust their asses to get a better lot for their membership.Also any changes that have been secured since 1991 have been through representation. If you are going to champion the WPDF be very careful as there is a lot going on behind the scenes there.

                    Now. Can we PLEASE get back to coming up with fresh ideas instead of rehashing old arguments. We know where we are.It's S**T. What can we do to climb out of it? There were some good ideas in the NS recently RE Allowances and Tax credits. Anybody go anything good here?
                    Last edited by apod; 8 May 2018, 11:09.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I think simple stuff like longer term HR planning would be very much appreciated. Stop trying to fill appointments 6 weeks out from deployment. We know we are going to be filling appointments, fill them 1 year out, that way people can plan their lives, units can plan contingency and even if you are mandatory selected, you have a year to put your shit in place as opposed.to getting nabbed during the MRE

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                        I think simple stuff like longer term HR planning would be very much appreciated. Stop trying to fill appointments 6 weeks out from deployment. We know we are going to be filling appointments, fill them 1 year out, that way people can plan their lives, units can plan contingency and even if you are mandatory selected, you have a year to put your shit in place as opposed.to getting nabbed during the MRE

                        Kinda an Officers only problem though isn't it. No less important but solving that isn't going to stop Paddy the Pte from throwing in the towel.

                        What are you and your fellows coming up with to help enlisted retention??

                        Sorry for the pointed question but as our management I think it is a valid question.

                        In my units case our boss brought back the Wednesday afternoon sports parade.AFTER he did away with the Friday afternoon Skeleton staff policy that a previous boss had brought in.

                        One of those policies meant lads could collect their kids from school and not have to pay childcare at least one day a week.The other had them kicking a ball.

                        Good thinking there
                        "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                          I think simple stuff like longer term HR planning would be very much appreciated. Stop trying to fill appointments 6 weeks out from deployment. We know we are going to be filling appointments, fill them 1 year out, that way people can plan their lives, units can plan contingency and even if you are mandatory selected, you have a year to put your shit in place as opposed.to getting nabbed during the MRE
                          Stop trying to fill 10 appointments with 1 person.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by apod View Post
                            Kinda an Officers only problem though isn't it. No less important but solving that isn't going to stop Paddy the Pte from throwing in the towel.

                            What are you and your fellows coming up with to help enlisted retention??

                            Sorry for the pointed question but as our management I think it is a valid question.

                            In my units case our boss brought back the Wednesday afternoon sports parade.AFTER he did away with the Friday afternoon Skeleton staff policy that a previous boss had brought in.

                            One of those policies meant lads could collect their kids from school and not have to pay childcare at least one day a week.The other had them kicking a ball.

                            Good thinking there
                            The Wed Sports parade thing is something that the COS is pushing. It wasnt a unit level matter.

                            I am fortunate in that in recent years all of my appointments have been with relatively small groups so it is easier to be flexible and look after people when they have been looking after the DF.

                            Being able to predict who of any rank is going overseas and on courses in 2019 would allow people the time and space to sort out their home lives.

                            How many times were the cooks, mowag crewmen, fitters etc selected after the MRE? It means they get shafted, the overseas unit suffers during formup, home units are suddenly down people that they had planned to use for other tasks etc.

                            How many times have the list for courses come out the Fri before the course starts? Someone expected to upsticks to the DFTC for a month needs more notice than that. Someone going on a PNCO Cse in Sept should already know so they can prepare themselves and their family and so that their boss can find and train a replacement storeman, clerk, driver etc.

                            As for officers getting posted to opposite corners of the country, happens every week, seen as part of the job and is one reason why people are running out the gate even at Lt Col level

                            As for what I am doing to help retention for the Pte soldier, reward their loyalty as best I can within my own resources and capabilities, stop people putting obstacles in the way when saying yes is as easy as saying no, make the job something that people want to come to every week and not something they are dreading.
                            Last edited by Fantasia; 8 May 2018, 12:44.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                              Stop trying to fill 10 appointments with 1 person.
                              Not sure I understand this point. Sorry

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Small things matter. Skeleton staff on a Friday can be very useful for the troops to get their domestic life sorted but it also allows the CS to get his house in order for the following week without 100 interuptions.

                                APOD, How far ahead can a Pte soldier in your location plan his duties?

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