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  • #76
    Unless one of our colonies decides to revolt any operation that our Special Forces would be involved in would be a multinational affair and we could piggyback on their resources. If we really wanted a Transport aircraft should we not look at something like the Boeing 737 Cargo variant that could also be converted to the passenger role for deployment of troops overseas and the recovery of Irish citizens if needed. It could also use the maintenance facilities as used by major airlines already in this country

    https://www.boeing.com/commercial/se...r-program.page

    It would also help with our conversion to the P 8 posideon in the future
    Last edited by apc; 17 May 2018, 12:16.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      and where the regs differ?
      It wont make a tangible difference in this particular case viz the CASA.

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      • #78
        A 737 would spend most of it's time on the ground or training, a la C130, so that's never going to happen. A Casa as a pure utility transport has a role and would get used for para/medevac/routine transport/spares resupply/multi-engine trainer/emergency transport in the fashion that the King Air did. As for an ARW function, all you would have to do is block allocate flight hours to them and say "Right, you lot are getting 100 hrs of flight time this calendar year. Use it wisely" and that's them taken care of. After that, you follow airline practise and treat it as the "spare", ready for ad-hoc work, available (required for service) every day on the basis that it will not be available for at least one night a week when it is down for servicing, except on an absolute emergency basis. That way, it is essentially always on hand (crew A on hand by day, crew B on a pager by night) and gives genuine 24/7/365 coverage, which keeps AC pilots active and occupied, does not strain resources of spares and manpower and provides genuine utility to the State.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          You might see an actual miracle and the DoD buy a 295 as a genuine utility aircraft, alongside the MARPAT airframes, because I have no faith in the notion that it would become practise to keep stripping out palletised mission kit. A lot of operators found that the constant stripping out and refitting of palletised systems only increased wear and tear on the kit and the parent hull and the manufacturer's boasts of an hour or two to do same needs always to be taken with a pinch of salt. There seems to be some mental block in the DoD that the AC might have an actual use for a pure cargo/utility aircraft.
          I agree that a dedicated MSA asset is far better than the palletised approach. Sensor reliability and general platform capability is never as good. As maritime ISR is a cornerstone defence requirement one could argue that it does require a dedicated platform at least mostly attributed to it.

          As for a miracle and getting a C-295 tactical airlifter - you never know. A number of people here on IMO were surprised that the INS would expand to nine vessels. Maybe you may get three airframes right out of the box.

          The blindspot with respect to military aviation in Ireland is something I cannot fathom. Like some spell has been cast.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            I agree that a dedicated MSA asset is far better than the palletised approach. Sensor reliability and general platform capability is never as good. As maritime ISR is a cornerstone defence requirement one could argue that it does require a dedicated platform at least mostly attributed to it.

            As for a miracle and getting a C-295 tactical airlifter - you never know. A number of people here on IMO were surprised that the INS would expand to nine vessels. Maybe you may get three airframes right out of the box.

            The blindspot with respect to military aviation in Ireland is something I cannot fathom. Like some spell has been cast.
            And with a dedicated marpat a/c it would give you the ASW and weapons options

            Having said that palletised gives you-
            - surge transport capability
            - additional proper air ambulance capability
            - more options when an a/c is u/s
            Last edited by DeV; 17 May 2018, 13:42.

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            • #81
              I don’t agree with this old yarn that a 737 or C-130 would spend most of its time training or on the ground. History has shown the air corps has coped well with single airframes ie; the king air, defender, Learjet, g4, hell even the casa has often only been a single airframe for large periods of time. Once an aircraft type is in established use things work out. I feel that idea has been a large factor in why the air corps and military aviation in Ireland is where it is

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              • #82
                I also think the idea of buying a used and 'cheap' 737/Avro RJ should be examined. It might only clock up 250+ hours annually, but it would be a real asset. Justify the maintenance costs by eliminating the need to hire aircraft for troop rotations. Kit the front10 rows out in a VIP suite and you have enhanced MATS. A huge re-supply capability compared to C295. Ticks a few boxes, and probably cost considerably less then a full-spec C295.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Tempest View Post
                  I also think the idea of buying a used and 'cheap' 737/Avro RJ should be examined. It might only clock up 250+ hours annually, but it would be a real asset. Justify the maintenance costs by eliminating the need to hire aircraft for troop rotations. Kit the front10 rows out in a VIP suite and you have enhanced MATS. A huge re-supply capability compared to C295. Ticks a few boxes, and probably cost considerably less then a full-spec C295.
                  Even if you could put a rational case together it would never pass the political test. I could well imagine the complaints on radio etc.

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                  • #84
                    Remember the BBJ (Bertie Business Jet)?

                    Remember in the context of the tender

                    The AC could get 2 x P8 Poseidon MARPATs (which would be approx 1/2 an annual total Defence budget for a year for purchase alone) and 1+ x Boeing 737

                    It’s ruled out already as you can’t parajump from a 737 afaik

                    But just for the crack 1+ x C40Ai Clipper
                    Welcome to the official corporate site for the world's largest aerospace company and leading manufacturer of commercial jetliners and defense, space and security systems. Learn about our passion for innovation, our products, careers and more.


                    Or of course a civvy combi which could be cheaper



                    But either way they are out of running for this RFP

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                    • #85
                      @tempest, 146s are junk, based on personal experience and I wouldn't touch them even if you gave it to me for free. Their only saving grace is that they are quiet and cheap to buy. Militaries that operate them only do so because BAe will practically give them away with cornflakes and because they have no ramp, they need pallet lifters and mobile conveyors, which are expensive and themselves need transport.....the King Air was originally one of three and it was a crime that the other two were sold off. They are a benchmark of what a popular, reliable aircraft should be....The Defender has not covered itself in glory in terms of reliability and these days, is essentially hand built to order. The pilots hate it because it is cramped and noisy. A Twin Otter would have been a better choice.....in terms of realpolitik, the politicians would reduce it to the status of a Garda "gendarmerie" if they thought they could get away with it. The DF is about as small a force as is possible to sustain UN ops. The politicians would love to have the DF budget to buy votes with.

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                      • #86
                        Even standing still, a 737 needs regular maintenance and when you fly it, it needs even more. Airlines make the costs work because they fly them for at least 8 hrs a day, to spread the cost over the annual hours. Ryanair can run theirs cheaply enough because of their buying power, but you buy one 737 and watch the costs hit the roof, especially if you only fly it for a few hundred hours a year. It really is expensive to keep this class of aircraft. It'd be cheaper to run a squadron of Ferraris. For what the AC does, it'd be cheaper to just ring Netjets, any time you need to do some VIP stuff and people like Titan if you want to move troops.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by apc View Post
                          Unless one of our colonies decides to revolt any operation that our Special Forces would be involved in would be a multinational affair and we could piggyback on their resources. If we really wanted a Transport aircraft should we not look at something like the Boeing 737 Cargo variant that could also be converted to the passenger role for deployment of troops overseas and the recovery of Irish citizens if needed. It could also use the maintenance facilities as used by major airlines already in this country

                          https://www.boeing.com/commercial/se...r-program.page

                          It would also help with our conversion to the P 8 posideon in the future
                          Sigh.
                          You really don't know much about what the current mission set of the Wing is or their responsibilities do you? If Irish Citizens are taken Hostage abroad.Be they NGO workers,Journalists or even Irish troops it is no one else's responsibility to get them out other than the Irish Government. Now if 1-2 Irish citizens are taken hostage on board a B.A or Air France jet for example than we will be lucky as the Government or those national carriers will send a nice little reception party.

                          However..... If it's Aer Lingus guess who it falls down too????

                          Now that's just one example. Remember the Rory Carroll incident??

                          At this time we have a ferrari in a garage as we have a world class Intervention team but limited means to insert them or extract them or their rescuees. The wing will have a large input into this.Especially seeing as they are also slotted for the EUBG in 2020(public domain).

                          Oh, and good luck trying STOL on an unprepared strip with a 737
                          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                          • #88
                            Ah you should re read the post never suggested 737 and STOL. How do we deploy troops at the moment?.

                            And how did the ARW deploy for that incident or were two rangers to travel with a Government Officials and a Garda and 2 Arab speaking members of G2 to give Advice to SAS and Delta resources already in Bagdad?

                            I would have thought something like a 737 would have been ideal for their transport
                            Last edited by apc; 18 May 2018, 01:20.

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                            • #89
                              Trying to squeeze too many roles from a single type has never worked well for the IAC in the past. Think Dauphin. A role specific aircraft does not necessarily mean you're not getting vfm, in fact the opposite is probably true when it comes to extremely specialised roles such as Maritime Patrol.

                              No matter how simplly and quickly the manufacturer claims plug and play palletised consoles can be torn down or setup, make no mistake they will be sensitive and eventually troublesome. Techs will be loathe to touch it.

                              As airlifters they will be payload limited by all the non-removable extras they carry under the floor - wiring/radar etc.

                              Buy a specialised MPA and it will excel. Buy a specialised airlifter and it will excel. Base both on the same platform and you will get VFM but not necessarily optimal capability. Therein lies the conundrum.

                              It is interesting to note that the RAF has 7 retired C130J Cmk5 (short fuselage) awaiting sale at the current time. (3 sold. Bahrain x 2. USN x 1 for Blue Angels Fat Albert replacement) Marshalls Aerospace of Cambridge have a refurbishment program to as good as new standard. Time to invoke the Defence MoU agreed a couple of years ago and grab a bargain?

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                                Trying to squeeze too many roles from a single type has never worked well for the IAC in the past. Think Dauphin. A role specific aircraft does not necessarily mean you're not getting vfm, in fact the opposite is probably true when it comes to extremely specialised roles such as Maritime Patrol.

                                No matter how simplly and quickly the manufacturer claims plug and play palletised consoles can be torn down or setup, make no mistake they will be sensitive and eventually troublesome. Techs will be loathe to touch it.

                                As airlifters they will be payload limited by all the non-removable extras they carry under the floor - wiring/radar etc.

                                Buy a specialised MPA and it will excel. Buy a specialised airlifter and it will excel. Base both on the same platform and you will get VFM but not necessarily optimal capability. Therein lies the conundrum.

                                It is interesting to note that the RAF has 7 retired C130J Cmk5 (short fuselage) awaiting sale at the current time. (3 sold. Bahrain x 2. USN x 1 for Blue Angels Fat Albert replacement) Marshalls Aerospace of Cambridge have a refurbishment program to as good as new standard. Time to invoke the Defence MoU agreed a couple of years ago and grab a bargain?
                                Down to 5 Bangladesh is picking up two I think:

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