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  • #91
    Every aircraft standing still requires maintenance. For the capability a combi 737,319/320 would bring its a no brainer. VIP, cargo, trooping, humanitarian etc. And it has the range for the areas of the world the DF operates in.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
      Trying to squeeze too many roles from a single type has never worked well for the IAC in the past. Think Dauphin. A role specific aircraft does not necessarily mean you're not getting vfm, in fact the opposite is probably true when it comes to extremely specialised roles such as Maritime Patrol.

      No matter how simplly and quickly the manufacturer claims plug and play palletised consoles can be torn down or setup, make no mistake they will be sensitive and eventually troublesome. Techs will be loathe to touch it.

      As airlifters they will be payload limited by all the non-removable extras they carry under the floor - wiring/radar etc.

      Buy a specialised MPA and it will excel. Buy a specialised airlifter and it will excel. Base both on the same platform and you will get VFM but not necessarily optimal capability. Therein lies the conundrum.

      It is interesting to note that the RAF has 7 retired C130J Cmk5 (short fuselage) awaiting sale at the current time. (3 sold. Bahrain x 2. USN x 1 for Blue Angels Fat Albert replacement) Marshalls Aerospace of Cambridge have a refurbishment program to as good as new standard. Time to invoke the Defence MoU agreed a couple of years ago and grab a bargain?
      While I agree the Government and DoD don’t

      The airlifter will spend its time doing utility transport of spares etc (maybe a monthly flight to Beruit), possibly rotating the smaller contingents. It will also spend time with people doing jumps. The vast majority of its time will be spend on air ambulance work.... with BREXIT operations may be further afield than the UK.

      If the Government and DoD had their way air ambulance missions would be conducted in the back seat of a PC9 (actually HSE are involved so it would be a drop tank).

      With a palletised system I’m not talking about doing it on a weekly basis. You need an air ambulance (the transporter is u/s and the L45 is in Brussels) and it’s time critical serious ill patient ? Take out the observer pallet and slide in the a/a pallet (I know it isn’t as simple as that but you get the point).

      Originally posted by Spark23 View Post
      Every aircraft standing still requires maintenance. For the capability a combi 737,319/320 would bring its a no brainer. VIP, cargo, trooping, humanitarian etc. And it has the range for the areas of the world the DF operates in.
      Either way it isn’t what we are getting with this RFP

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
        I suppose the real question is: Do they want a CN-235 Replacement with slightly more capability, or do they want a Genuine Military Air-lifter that can also multi task as an MPA.

        I think a review of current Fisheries Protection Flying might be worthwhile, for example if you remove the requirement for Low Level(Below 1000ft) inspection of each vessel and instead use an EO/IR to take the appropriate snapshot and gather data for logging, you therefore can patrol a much larger area per patrol and therefore a bigger platform can make sense given the areas covered.

        You remove the perception of overkill as you patrol a much larger area more efficiently.

        In the process a larger airframe becomes viable with the associated advantages as a genuine air-lifter.

        I don't believe a Pajero would fit in a C-295
        I had another quick read of the DWP15 and possibly they may want to do both but under separate RFI's.

        This current RFI to replace the CN-235's with potentially with C-295W's to "enhance maritime
        surveillance and provide a greater degree of utility for transport and cargo carrying tasks" has possibly chosen to emphasise the utility transport requirements of the ARW.

        A further RFI down the track will be required to replace the Learjet 45. Possibly that new replacement aircraft will provide the opportunity for the DoD to entertain a larger and more multi-role platform to extend capabilities into troop transport, VIP, medevac and HADR roles including repatriation of irish nationals, and airlift in support of overseas missions.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by apc View Post
          Ah you should re read the post never suggested 737 and STOL. How do we deploy troops at the moment?.

          And how did the ARW deploy for that incident or were two rangers to travel with a Government Officials and a Garda and 2 Arab speaking members of G2 to give Advice to SAS and Delta resources already in Bagdad?

          I would have thought something like a 737 would have been ideal for their transport
          Yes you did suggest a 737.Which if you read the RFP is ruled out by one of the requirements being STOL.

          AS for those lads going to Baghdad. That was a RECCE.

          NOT a Operational IE Combat Deployment. Again IOT to do those type of deployments you need proper equipment to do so.Equipment we don't have at this time and which we have no right to expect others to provide for us if the worst happens and we need it.
          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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          • #95
            well if you took the time and tried to understand what was written you would have grasped that the 737 wasnt suggested as a tactical transport or that it met the RFP. It was merely suggested to be an option as the the conversation had leaned more towards the Transport side of things. " A 737 Cargo variant that could also be converted to the passenger role for deployment of troops overseas and the recovery of Irish citizens if needed." You were the one who couldnt figure it out. Comeback down to earth.

            Was the mission to Bagdad more of a Liaison mission than a RECCE

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            • #96
              They want it to be a STOL aircraft, to do something that they will probably never do, which is to operate off grass/gravel/earth/sand runways...

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              • #97
                Originally posted by apc View Post
                well if you took the time and tried to understand what was written you would have grasped that the 737 wasnt suggested as a tactical transport or that it met the RFP. It was merely suggested to be an option as the the conversation had leaned more towards the Transport side of things. " A 737 Cargo variant that could also be converted to the passenger role for deployment of troops overseas and the recovery of Irish citizens if needed." You were the one who couldnt figure it out. Comeback down to earth.

                Was the mission to Bagdad more of a Liaison mission than a RECCE
                Feet firmly planted on the ground.Thanks.
                While such an aircraft would indeed be useful for troops rotations and shipping spares to the leb etc it would be feck all use for anything else.I am not the only one to point that out to you. What the the DF are looking for is the type of aircraft for the roles the likes of a C-295 can fill.As pointed out in the RFP.
                I have outlined why the bearded types need such an asset and as usual you get smart going on about colonies etc etc.
                The facts are the facts.In an ideal world we would have enough funding to purchase different aircraft for different roles but as we don't we need to have workhorses that can multitask and accept it or not the aircraft we pick may be asked to carry out the mission I outlined

                As for Baghdad it was a bit of both.Thankfully he was released before they needed to use the info from the RECCE as it might have been a bit embarassing for us,what with us having no way of getting our lads there and back.
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                • #98
                  By seeking a STOL aircraft, you merely open up a wider range of poor quality metalled runways the aircraft can use safely.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by apod View Post
                    Feet firmly planted on the ground.Thanks.
                    While such an aircraft would indeed be useful for troops rotations and shipping spares to the leb etc it would be feck all use for anything else.I am not the only one to point that out to you. What the the DF are looking for is the type of aircraft for the roles the likes of a C-295 can fill.As pointed out in the RFP.
                    I have outlined why the bearded types need such an asset and as usual you get smart going on about colonies etc etc.
                    The facts are the facts.In an ideal world we would have enough funding to purchase different aircraft for different roles but as we don't we need to have workhorses that can multitask and accept it or not the aircraft we pick may be asked to carry out the mission I outlined

                    As for Baghdad it was a bit of both.Thankfully he was released before they needed to use the info from the RECCE as it might have been a bit embarassing for us,what with us having no way of getting our lads there and back.
                    Glad you agree that a 737 type would be useful although you should really expand your thinking a bit as it would be far more useful than what you imagine. I do understand the versatility the Air Corp are looking for and as I said before the C295 is probably the best of a small selection and of course the bearded types as you call them could use it for their bearded missions. And a 737 type aircraft would have been ideal to get them to Bagdad considering that any ground transport required would be laid on.
                    Again as you fail to grasp I suggested a 737 type aircraft as a transport because it would be i felt it would be more practical to have one for troop deployment and supply runs than using an MPA to run a few boxes of ammunition to the Leb. I do understand what the Air Corp want from the RFP.

                    My humblest apologies for causing your confusion

                    I wonder how many times has the current MPA had to land on unprepared strips

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                    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                      By seeking a STOL aircraft, you merely open up a wider range of poor quality metalled runways the aircraft can use safely.
                      Exactly. Think Chad,Mali etc. The new PC12's were chosen for their ability to support our contingents overseas amongst other things.The Casa replacements will be chosen with the same missions in mind along with other tasks that we cannot currently do properly due to lack of proper airframes EG ARW support overseas.Along with the staple tasks the Casa currently do.
                      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                      Comment


                      • You wont be long getting pissed off if the CoS says that you have to go all the way to Chad or Mali in a PC-12. There's a reason why the French use proper commercial sized transport aircraft, not warmed over business aircraft. If the DF genuinely wants to support the ARW on foreign ops, then ship out a pair of EC 135s in a couple of crates and pay a few techs and pilots to run them. The French, Brits and US do it as a matter of routine and have done so for decades.

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                        • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                          You wont be long getting pissed off if the CoS says that you have to go all the way to Chad or Mali in a PC-12. There's a reason why the French use proper commercial sized transport aircraft, not warmed over business aircraft. If the DF genuinely wants to support the ARW on foreign ops, then ship out a pair of EC 135s in a couple of crates and pay a few techs and pilots to run them. The French, Brits and US do it as a matter of routine and have done so for decades.
                          I was in CDG , Paris recently and was amazed to that there was whole ramp occupied by various Airbus types in military markings used for transporting duties, the UK did all their troop moves for years using VC10 and the L1011 Tristars again recycled from airlines.

                          If you are going to move large amounts of troops on a regular basis , you need access to suitable aircraft.

                          For one offs or even the potential to train for one offs with SFs you need access to capable aircraft.

                          If the DF genuinely wants to support the ARW on foreign ops, then ship out a pair of EC 135s in a couple of crates and pay a few techs and pilots to run them.
                          Belgians did it recently to Mali , I think, with a few NH90s.....in exactly that format...
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • The Yanks and Brits have been doing it since the evolution of a helicopter that could lift more than itself. These days, you send out your SF without a helicopter, you may as well leave rifles at home.

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                            • Response to question received on the RFP.

                              70% of the usage will be maritime patrol (including SAR TC)
                              20% will be logistical and army/SOF support (including MEDEVAC and air ambulance)
                              8% will be training pilot and army (including parachuting)
                              2% will be contingency (including VIP)

                              Each aircraft in the fleet is required to be able to do each listed role (to be that says a modular/palletised mission suite)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Response to question received on the RFP.

                                70% of the usage will be maritime patrol (including SAR TC)
                                20% will be logistical and army/SOF support (including MEDEVAC and air ambulance)
                                8% will be training pilot and army (including parachuting)
                                2% will be contingency (including VIP)

                                Each aircraft in the fleet is required to be able to do each listed role (to be that says a modular/palletised mission suite)
                                Doesn't necessarily require a palletized system, all those roles are achievable with FITS type consoles in place, this has been demonstrated with the current aircraft.

                                Its a pity they don't specify a particular weight/volume over a specified distance...

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