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  1. #1
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Eurostat: Highest share of expenditure on defence in Estonia, lowest in Ireland(2016)

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/pro...DDN-20180518-1

    In 2016, the EU's 28 Member States earmarked €200 billion of public expenditure for 'defence'. This is equivalent to 1.3% of GDP. This is much less than the amount spent on social protection (expenditure equivalent to 19.1% of GDP in 2016), health (7.1%) or education (4.7%), but higher than public spending on recreation, culture and religion (1.0%), environmental protection (0.7%) and housing and community amenities (0.6%).

    Highest share of expenditure on defence in Estonia, lowest in Ireland

    In 2016, the ratio of government defence expenditure to GDP varied across EU Member States from 0.3% in Ireland, 0.4% in Luxembourg, 0.6% in Malta and Austria, to 2.4% in Estonia, 2.1% in Greece, 2.0% in the United Kingdom and 1.8% in France.

    In absolute terms, the United Kingdom spent the most on defence (€47 bn in 2016). This is equivalent to almost a quarter (24%) of the total EU public expenditure on defence. It was followed by France (€41 bn, or 20% of the EU total), Germany (€33 bn, or 16%) and Italy (€22 bn, or 11%). Together, these four Member States accounted for 71% of the total defence expenditure in the EU.
    Last edited by Poiuyt; 28th May 2018 at 15:56.

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  3. #2
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    To be fair, that's still not entirely accurate given our screwed up GDP figures, I mean wasn't 2016 the "Leprechaun economics" year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    To be fair, that's still not entirely accurate given our screwed up GDP figures, I mean wasn't 2016 the "Leprechaun economics" year?
    Even if you take out the so called "Leprechaun economics" it does not change the picture a lot! The jump was in 2015 but the GDP has not fallen, and even if the GNI value is used the percentage is still roughly the same.

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    It's amazing what a border with Russia and learning from previous attacks will do (hat tip to Estonia}

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    The over-heating of the housing markets shows that there is room to expand our defence spend but selling that to the public will be an issue. However in the early 90's we had a spend of 1.4% and that seemed to be accepted.

    To convince people we must be able to define what our role will be in a common EU defence scenario, like some others we will still be outside of NATO so what can we bring to the table.
    Some items spring easily to mind such as Maritime Patrol, then there are areas which are lacking in a general EU scenario,, sea-lift, air-lift, air-2-air refuelling what role could we play there?

    What role will we play in future UN missions: just supplying bodies is more the role of southern Asian countries like India, Indonesia and Philippians. We only can supply small numbers of troops but could provide the heavy elements or expensive items such as air lift both through tactical aircraft and helicopters. The old ex-Soviet machines are not always going to be around and as recently seen Russia is not willing to provide such support to the west (Volga Dnepr will no longer provide AN-124s to NATO).

    Once we have a clear vision what we want a future Irish DF to do then we can start to push for more spending.

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  9. #6
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Looks like a journo was looking at IMO - it is not like they would look at EC pages

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...-at-0-3-of-GDP

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    Wouldn't be the first time.
    We defininitely better not discuss the secret air corps ARW base at the undisclosed location in the Midlands...
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Wouldn't be the first time.
    We defininitely better not discuss the secret air corps ARW base at the undisclosed location in the Midlands...
    I imagine you'll probably 'disappear' for posting that.

    Hopefully it'll be quick.

    Was nice knowing you
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    I imagine you'll probably 'disappear' for posting that.

    Hopefully it'll be quick.

    Was nice knowing you
    Zip ties,Blacked out goggles,peltors and most importantly a ball gag,being prepared as we speak.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  17. #10
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    Yes, the ball gag makes the experience a lot mo
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  19. #11
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Yes, the ball gag makes the experience a lot mo
    Looks like they got him mid-sentence.

    Hopefully the ball-gag isn't too tight.

    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  21. #12
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    I wish to confirm that I am alive and uninjured. Nobody need to be concerned for my welfare.
    Do not go looking for me.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  23. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I wish to confirm that I am alive and uninjured. Nobody need to be concerned for my welfare.
    Do not go looking for me.
    Thank Goodness for that.

    They didn't 'recruit' you did they?

    Why is my computer making funny whirring noises...
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  24. #14
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    Ireland’s defence spending is lowest in Europe at 0.3% of GDP

    By Sean O’Riordan
    The Department of Defence added that each country pursues a defence policy that reflects its particular requirements and there can be significant differences in the proportion of funding that differing states allocate to defence.

    “While there is always the potential to invest additional resources in defence, this must be considered against other social, economic and environmental priorities”

    The department said that there are a range of other international comparator measures which would place Ireland higher compared to other countries, including total defence expenditure, the percentage of overall government expenditure, and expenditure on a per capita basis.


    To use a phase made popular earlier this year "I call BS!!" (What is also often left out is that 25% of our defence budget is to cover Pensions)
    Clear, if we compare spend per capita or overall expenditure to a small Third World country we come out on top. But we have to be compared to our peers and that is other small/medium First World nations.

    Taking % GDP is a means to be able to fairly compare, if the economy is doing bad the GDP and spend goes down, if it is doing good GDP climes and so doe expenditure in absolute term. All the time the % stays the same, back in the late 80's we had still is a slight recession but our spend was 1.3%, a whole 1% more than today!

    So lets look at some other indicators:
    Firstly defence as % of total government budget
    Top: Estonia 6.0%
    Bottom: Luxembourg 1.0%
    Ireland: 1.1%
    Denmark: 2.3%
    Finland: 2.3%
    Sweden: 2.6%
    EU Avg: 2.6%

    Next the Bonn International Center for Conversion (BICC) GMI Index.
    The Global Militarization Index (GMI) depicts the relative weight and importance of the military apparatus of one state in relation to its society as a whole.
    Here we are on place 117 in the world, Israel being number 1.
    Ireland: 493pts
    Denmark: 642pts
    Finland: 718pts
    Sweden: 523pts

    One of the key sub-indicators in the GMI is the Military Expenditure Index Score: comparison of military expenditure with its gross domestic product (GDP) and its health expenditure (as share of its GDP);
    Ireland: 4.32
    Denmark: 4.42
    Finland: 4.96
    Sweden: 4.86

    We could go on with more comparisons but as we all know you can tell whatever story you want by selecting what to show and what not. But the general view is that no matter what index you use we are the bottom for defence. And what is more annoying is the DoD defending it with BS rather than being honest and saying the "outside some photo ops for politicos we do not give a flying f..k about funding defence"

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  26. #15
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    It would be interesting to see the different metrics when the money spent on pensions is taken out of the equation

  27. #16
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    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand radio silence from the dept and the taoiseach

    The question needs to be phrased in such a way as it is completely impossible for him to avoid it.

    Taoiseach , why is Irelands defence spending the lowest in europe?

    Reply - Look, new planes and boats!
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    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  28. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand radio silence from the dept and the taoiseach

    The question needs to be phrased in such a way as it is completely impossible for him to avoid it.

    Taoiseach , why is Irelands defence spending the lowest in europe?

    Reply - Look, new planes and boats!
    You think the Irish public care enough to make it an issue? Sadly if he announced any increase then we'd have "whataboutism" breaking out.

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  30. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    You think the Irish public care enough to make it an issue? Sadly if he announced any increase then we'd have "whataboutism" breaking out.
    That depends, I actually give the public more intelligence than maybe I should. At the moment Defence is seen as a joke, and a lot of that has to do with the lies people have been fed about being neutral but a lot has to do with cop-on. People know that with what we spend we can never defend ourselves, that the amount of money cannot support the resources needed to do the job. That is why many ask why do we need an Army? They could not defend us anyway, is the usual comment.

    What we need is a serious debate (more chance of us have a 2% of GDP defence budget!!), a serious debate about defence and what do we want and what we need to provide. Until this happens the most likely development will be less and less budget while the demand rises.

  31. #19
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    Don't forget the standard "sure nobody is ever going to attack us" apathetic line that is repeated as mantra by public and politicos alike. Until the attitude is likely to change there is no likelihood of any serious debate about DF funding or cability expansions.

    The AC Air Ambulance thread recent posts give the perfect example of the apathy at all levels to the DF.
    Gov willing to spend 7million Euros on private contractor out of hours air ambulance but would not consider devoting that funding to increasing AC air amb capabilities (forgeting agruement about whether AC should be doing it or not).
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  33. #20
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    What we need is a serious debate (more chance of us have a 2% of GDP defence budget!!), a serious debate about defence and what do we want and what we need to provide. Until this happens the most likely development will be less and less budget while the demand rises.
    The whataboutery on view for the PESCO debates was stunning ( and stunningly misinformed ). I was watching very closely the PESCO stuff to see if there was any GDP commitments on spending as that was the most likely place for it to pop up.

    Pensions or no the Eurostat indicator above is fairly solid ; there's little chance of change in the current political climate. ( And, since FF put one of their best people off Defence onto Brexit (Lisa) , I'd expect little change on that side of the house except a little better pay. )
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  35. #21
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    Useful statistic, and I agree with the posts above and am not optimistic about any real change in Irish defense spending. Trellheim & X Ray are spot on. Same old "sure we're neutral and everyone loves the Irish peacekeepers" arguments will be dusted off and wheeled out followed by the "whatabouery" crowd. Ireland, as I said before, has no real defense posture.

    The Defense White Paper (i.e. the defense strategy) describe a limited threat from a conventional force which is fairly accurate as such. Ireland is not Poland, we don't have the bear on the door step. So, as Irish logic goes, there is no threat, why spend the money? We don't need to project power to defend national interests and have historically clung to a dated concept of neutrality as an excuse to not defend the nation. We've avoided alliances like NATO and are a small partner in the EU. Geographically we're a bit isolated from a strategic threat perspective. When Luxemburg and Malta outspend you in relative terms, you know it's not a serious matter politically.


    Given the fairly parochial outlook of the Irish political system, even if our airspace and waters were routinely and visibly violated, I don't know it would change. Sure, we'd moan on at the UN & EU and send sternly worded memo's, then we'd be patted on the head like a petulant child at a wedding and told "here's a biccie, now fcuk off and leave the grown ups alone". If we don't take our own defense seriously, why would anyone else?

    Before spending, Ireland needs to decide on a strategy, then resource it. I would suggest spending on greater integration with EU & NATO airspace & radar systems, cyber, intel and naval systems to have awareness of who is in our waters (surface & below). At least we'd know what is out there and could use the systems for narcotic & fisheries interdiction. Actually being able to defend the country is probably a political non-starter. Could you imagine trying to explain integrated & networked air defense systems to the Healy-Rae's?

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  37. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishrgr View Post
    Useful statistic, and I agree with the posts above and am not optimistic about any real change in Irish defense spending. Trellheim & X Ray are spot on. Same old "sure we're neutral and everyone loves the Irish peacekeepers" arguments will be dusted off and wheeled out followed by the "whatabouery" crowd. Ireland, as I said before, has no real defense posture.

    The Defense White Paper (i.e. the defense strategy) describe a limited threat from a conventional force which is fairly accurate as such. Ireland is not Poland, we don't have the bear on the door step. So, as Irish logic goes, there is no threat, why spend the money? We don't need to project power to defend national interests and have historically clung to a dated concept of neutrality as an excuse to not defend the nation. We've avoided alliances like NATO and are a small partner in the EU. Geographically we're a bit isolated from a strategic threat perspective. When Luxemburg and Malta outspend you in relative terms, you know it's not a serious matter politically.


    Given the fairly parochial outlook of the Irish political system, even if our airspace and waters were routinely and visibly violated, I don't know it would change. Sure, we'd moan on at the UN & EU and send sternly worded memo's, then we'd be patted on the head like a petulant child at a wedding and told "here's a biccie, now fcuk off and leave the grown ups alone". If we don't take our own defense seriously, why would anyone else?

    Before spending, Ireland needs to decide on a strategy, then resource it. I would suggest spending on greater integration with EU & NATO airspace & radar systems, cyber, intel and naval systems to have awareness of who is in our waters (surface & below). At least we'd know what is out there and could use the systems for narcotic & fisheries interdiction. Actually being able to defend the country is probably a political non-starter. Could you imagine trying to explain integrated & networked air defense systems to the Healy-Rae's?
    The Healy-Raes??? The same clowns who suggested calling in the Army to cut back weeds on Kerry ditches??
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  39. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    The Healy-Raes??? The same clowns who suggested calling in the Army to cut back weeds on Kerry ditches??
    I’m surprised they haven’t asked for the army to ferry drink-drivers home from the pubs in Kerry...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
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  41. #24
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    Any day now.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  43. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishrgr View Post
    Before spending, Ireland needs to decide on a strategy, then resource it. I would suggest spending on greater integration with EU & NATO airspace & radar systems, cyber, intel and naval systems to have awareness of who is in our waters (surface & below). At least we'd know what is out there and could use the systems for narcotic & fisheries interdiction. Actually being able to defend the country is probably a political non-starter. Could you imagine trying to explain integrated & networked air defense systems to the Healy-Rae's?
    I would add what role we want to play in the UN to the list, a provider of bodies or a provider of capability?

    As for the Healy-Rae brothers, they are the easiest of the indy crowd, just give them the contract to put a LR radar site on the top of Carrauntoohil!

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