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  1. #26
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Do you think the camo pattern made a difference in Somalia though? I can't imagine the locals looking through binos and going "nah Mohammed, it's ok these are IRISH foreign invaders here to support the UN, and by extension foreign colonial powers, leave them go." "How do I know?" "Well if you look at the dark brown, black, and shades of green, while it looks similar to the French dogs, it's actually quite distinct"

    Any photos/links to the Swiss project?
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

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  3. #27
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    Do you think the camo pattern made a difference in Somalia though? I can't imagine the locals looking through binos and going "nah Mohammed, it's ok these are IRISH foreign invaders here to support the UN, and by extension foreign colonial powers, leave them go." "How do I know?" "Well if you look at the dark brown, black, and shades of green, while it looks similar to the French dogs, it's actually quite distinct"
    I agree to a point

    Not sure if the US were the only ones with chocolate chip in Somalia.... but they weren’t part of UNOSOM II AFAIK

    Of course then the went to French (Franklin?) uniform in OG (as used with UNIFIL (or was UNOSOM II the first use?)), not sure if there was French with UNOSOM II or in Somalia - of course one thing worth nothing is the Irish was the only contigent not to take any casualties.

    The Irish pattern is very similar to the French TBH

    My personal feeling is that maybe we should just go for someone else’s pattern and buy off the shelf, which would probably improve supply, design and quality issues and drastically reduce costs.

    Any photos/links to the Swiss project?
    ?
    Last edited by DeV; 15th August 2018 at 18:07.

  4. #28
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Do you think the camo pattern made a difference in Somalia though? I can't imagine the locals looking through binos and going "nah Mohammed, it's ok these are IRISH foreign invaders here to support the UN, and by extension foreign colonial powers, leave them go." "How do I know?" "Well if you look at the dark brown, black, and shades of green, while it looks similar to the French dogs, it's actually quite distinct"
    In a word.Yes. The first time the Irish were contacted out there it transpired afterwards that the Somali militia mistook them for Americans.My cousin was one of the lads there that day and he and the rest of the people who were there are some of the few DF to have fired in anger overseas in the last 30 years.
    Any photos/links to the Swiss project?
    Yup. http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t12429-n...s-armed-forces or you can just google "Swiss Army MBAS".




    Of course then the went to French (Franklin?) uniform in OG (as used with UNIFIL (or was UNOSOM II the first use?)), not sure if there was French with UNOSOM II or in Somalia - of course one thing worth nothing is the Irish was the only contigent not to take any casualties.
    UNOSOM 2 were the first to wear what later became the "Franklin" uniform.The first ones were actually French F1 uniforms that the irish purchased as a UOR from the French Foreign legion whom they shared a camp with in Baidoa.
    The Irish pattern is very similar to the French TBH
    Not as much yellow/loam.

    My personal feeling is that maybe we should just go for someone else’s pattern and buy off the shelf, which would probably improve supply, design and quality issues and drastically reduce costs.
    Nah.I like the fact that our pattern is ours.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  6. #29
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Swiss stuff is normally good quality but unlikely to be combat proven and will be expensive

  7. #30
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Anyway.Thread drift.Back on topic folks.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  8. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    Do you think the camo pattern made a difference in Somalia though? I can't imagine the locals looking through binos and going "nah Mohammed, it's ok these are IRISH foreign invaders here to support the UN, and by extension foreign colonial powers, leave them go." "How do I know?" "Well if you look at the dark brown, black, and shades of green, while it looks similar to the French dogs, it's actually quite distinct"

    Any photos/links to the Swiss project?
    In that type of thinking, then buying a leprechaun suit in temple Bar would be more effective with shamrock bobbles on the helmet

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  10. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    In a word.Yes. The first time the Irish were contacted out there it transpired afterwards that the Somali militia mistook them for Americans.My cousin was one of the lads there that day and he and the rest of the people who were there are some of the few DF to have fired in anger overseas in the last 30 years.

    Yup. http://iacmc.forumotion.com/t12429-n...s-armed-forces or you can just google "Swiss Army MBAS".





    UNOSOM 2 were the first to wear what later became the "Franklin" uniform.The first ones were actually French F1 uniforms that the irish purchased as a UOR from the French Foreign legion whom they shared a camp with in Baidoa.

    Not as much yellow/loam.


    Nah.I like the fact that our pattern is ours.
    AFAIK the 77 Inf BN UNIFIL was the first to wear franklins.. The 76 had US Style OG combats on trail.

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  12. #33
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craghopper View Post
    AFAIK the 77 Inf BN UNIFIL was the first to wear franklins.. The 76 had US Style OG combats on trail.
    Correct.The 77 Bn were the first to wear the Franklin.1st TPT UNOSOM Changed to the French F1's halfway through the trip and the 2nd TPT deployed in them. Franklins were a copy of the F1's.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Correct.The 77 Bn were the first to wear the Franklin.1st TPT UNOSOM Changed to the French F1's halfway through the trip and the 2nd TPT deployed in them. Franklins were a copy of the F1's.
    Yup.. I Know .. One of the lads I trained with served with the FFL. Tailored the franklins to the same specs as the F1's. Had us all following suit.

  15. #35
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    At the end of the day camo pattern uniforms and kit are designed to help conceal troops for their safety, we should not forget this. Similarly, this should be the primary focus in picking a pattern, making sure it does what it is supposed to.

    Personally, I think our pattern works well at home or in temperate environments such as most of Europe, etc. What we need is an arid uniform considering where most of our recent and current overseas missions are. We have one already, it just needs to be issued on a widescale basis instead of becoming some gucchi collectors item on ebay costing 500 euros a pop!

    In relation to force protection / identification, it is a fallicy to say our uniform significantly protects us overseas. We drive around in the most un-tactical bright white vehicles, adorned with bright blue flags and wear same bright blue covers on our body armour and helmets. We can't make it more clear who we represent. If we are going to be contacted it will happen.

    On the missions where we aren't wearing UN colours, e.g. East Timor, Chad, Mali, etc. then our uniforms definitely need to help us blend in and this is where continuing to wear stand out patterns need to be questioned. Also, consider in the highest risk theatre we have recently operated in, Afghanistan, we wore desert uniforms like every other nation. ????
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  17. #36
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    Also, consider in the highest risk theatre we have recently operated in, Afghanistan, we wore desert uniforms like every other nation. ????
    Except for the Temperate pattern helmet cover, CBA, and battlevest... kind of makes you wonder why they wore arid uniforms at all?

    Or were arid pattern helmet cover, CBA covers, and battlevest ever ordered?




    Last edited by Poiuyt; 16th August 2018 at 16:07.

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  19. #37
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    At the end of the day camo pattern uniforms and kit are designed to help conceal troops for their safety, we should not forget this. Similarly, this should be the primary focus in picking a pattern, making sure it does what it is supposed to.

    Personally, I think our pattern works well at home or in temperate environments such as most of Europe, etc. What we need is an arid uniform considering where most of our recent and current overseas missions are. We have one already, it just needs to be issued on a widescale basis instead of becoming some gucchi collectors item on ebay costing 500 euros a pop!

    In relation to force protection / identification, it is a fallicy to say our uniform significantly protects us overseas. We drive around in the most un-tactical bright white vehicles, adorned with bright blue flags and wear same bright blue covers on our body armour and helmets. We can't make it more clear who we represent. If we are going to be contacted it will happen.

    On the missions where we aren't wearing UN colours, e.g. East Timor, Chad, Mali, etc. then our uniforms definitely need to help us blend in and this is where continuing to wear stand out patterns need to be questioned. Also, consider in the highest risk theatre we have recently operated in, Afghanistan, we wore desert uniforms like every other nation. ????
    Quote Originally Posted by Poiuyt View Post
    Except for the Temperate pattern helmet cover, CBA, and battlevest... kind of makes you wonder why they wore arid uniforms at all?

    Or were arid pattern helmet cover, CBA covers, and battlevest ever ordered?




    There has been occasions overseas where elements (for various reasons) have/will/try to target specific nationalities in a multi-national environment for various reasons. Including when you are in a white vehicle, with blue body armour & helmet cover. Of course, on occasion having a unique uniform will be an advantage in this regard.... sometimes a disadvantage

    Why is a lighter colour required in some climates..... it isn’t necessarily to blend in ..... its to stay cooler



    Also remember that DPMs actually replaced 2 uniforms.
    Last edited by DeV; 16th August 2018 at 16:36.

  20. #38
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Except for the Temperate pattern helmet cover, CBA, and battlevest... kind of makes you wonder why they wore arid uniforms at all?

    Or were arid pattern helmet cover, CBA covers, and battlevest ever ordered?
    Dark colours retain heat and attract insects. and yes they did order 5.11 battlevests and desert helmet covers.GSBA was worn under the vest so was concealed for the most part by it.
    47161_426733773670_6809866_n (1).jpg
    Last edited by apod; 17th August 2018 at 18:18.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Dark colours retain heat and attract insects. and yes they did order 5.11 battlevests and desert helmet covers.GSBA was worn under the vest so was concealed for the most part by it.
    47161_426733773670_6809866_n (1).jpg
    Any particular reason the guy on the left is wearing nomex flight gloves?

  23. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There has been occasions overseas where elements (for various reasons) have/will/try to target specific nationalities in a multi-national environment for various reasons. Including when you are in a white vehicle, with blue body armour & helmet cover. Of course, on occasion having a unique uniform will be an advantage in this regard.... sometimes a disadvantage

    Why is a lighter colour required in some climates..... it isn’t necessarily to blend in ..... its to stay cooler



    Also remember that DPMs actually replaced 2 uniforms.
    Just looking at the first pic and comparing the BA Desert DPM to our arid, you notice just how much better our pattern blends into the prevalent background muster. The amount of brown is just too much in the BA Desert DPM.

  24. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Any particular reason the guy on the left is wearing nomex flight gloves?
    scoring gucchi points

    i'm sure there were no shortage of them where he was.

    on the serious side....they are fire resistant, give good tactile dexterity and are close fitting. so not bad as a bit hand protection.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  26. #42
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    The way the IDPM was 'aridised' has produced a uniform that's far too light in tone, it looks ok in the one environment in the pictures, but in general terms in Afghanistan it's far too light - it's almost luminescent in anywhere that isn't the colour of concrete dust.

    The French arid/desert pattern is very good, as is the Norwegian one, the Swedish pattern is a bit light for my taste - it would be fine in [[/I]very[/I] arid environments, but I think it would struggle anywhere that was a bit more mixed.

    Arktis have produced a scheme called Comb Arid that worked far more effectively in Northern Iraq/Kurdistan that than you'd think a collection of greens would, even in very 'deserty' areas.

    The existing temperate IDPM pattern would be fine in more arid colours - tone down the Red/Brown colour to a mid-Tan/Brown, change the black to a lightish tan/sand, and it would be an excellent scheme...

  27. #43
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    The way the IDPM was 'aridised' has produced a uniform that's far too light in tone, it looks ok in the one environment in the pictures, but in general terms in Afghanistan it's far too light - it's almost luminescent in anywhere that isn't the colour of concrete dust.

    The French arid/desert pattern is very good, as is the Norwegian one, the Swedish pattern is a bit light for my taste - it would be fine in [[/I]very[/I] arid environments, but I think it would struggle anywhere that was a bit more mixed.

    Arktis have produced a scheme called Comb Arid that worked far more effectively in Northern Iraq/Kurdistan that than you'd think a collection of greens would, even in very 'deserty' areas.

    The existing temperate IDPM pattern would be fine in more arid colours - tone down the Red/Brown colour to a mid-Tan/Brown, change the black to a lightish tan/sand, and it would be an excellent scheme...
    From the pictures there is a great variation in the colorisation of the uniforms, this could be due to dust or more likely fading, so a quality issue. In the "non-faded" there is a light tan, light brown tone combined with the base sand tone.

  28. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    From the pictures there is a great variation in the colorisation of the uniforms, this could be due to dust or more likely fading, so a quality issue. In the "non-faded" there is a light tan, light brown tone combined with the base sand tone.
    I've seen some brand new uniforms, I assume they were a reasonable representation of the average of how the Arid DPM looks, and they are far too light in tone - they are different colours and pattern to the awful US ACU sofa camouflage, but the effect at 100 yards or so is similar, if a light grey/sand man-shaped blob rather than a light grey/blue man shaped blob...

    It simply doesn't work, it's just too light.

  29. #45
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    MOD: Back on thread folks.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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    To shed

  31. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    First the rumours.
    1/ Haix scout boot.An ankle high,nubuck and cordura boot will replace the current Haix ,full grain leather,Operational boot.

    2/ Haix scout boot will replace BOTH the current Haix operational boot AND the Magnum Light Operational barrack Boot.

    3/ Haix scout boot will be worn both Overseas and at home.

    4/ Haix scout boot will only be worn "on the ground" with Black barracks being retained for,barracks?

    5/ Soldiers will be issued one pair of Haix scout boots and they will be used for all activities except ceremonial. One pair.That's it.

    6/ Haix scout boots are only to be issued for overseas.

    Now.Anybody with IKON access can read the Minutes of the DF Clothing Committee,but they are scant on detail. So pretty much no help. So why are the above points an issue?


    Opinions please.
    1. Yes, but due to limited budget, only a few thousand have been bought. Personnel who are going overseas will be issued them.

    2. Yes, the plan is that the Haix Scout will replace both. Certain specific roles will require different boots eg arty and fitters, steel toe cap etc.

    3. Overseas initially. No plan or guidance formally issued for home usage as of yet.

    4. I would imagine for the purpose of uniformity and Sgt Majors not having cardiac fits this will be the case until the boot is full rolled out.

    5. No decision as of yet but its looking like it.

    6. Correct initially. The initial buy is not big enough to kit out everybody and existing stocks of the barrack boot and operation boot have not been depleted to an extent where a mass purchase of the Haix Scout can be completed.

    I'm of the opinion that its a decent boot for most of what we do, providing enough support for dismounted operations. For serious tabbing with 40 plus kilos I think an extra inch of height might have been better - The Haix Nepal Pro would probably be a better choice overall as its higher, the french have mass ordered it and it has the same sole unit and one less cordura panel - less to go wrong, but its an alright choice overall given the budget constraints at hand.


    The issue that I do have is that NO goretex boot works well in heat. Boots with an EPTFE membrane work best in cool dry conditions, despite what WL Gore say, goretex boots and similar competitors are not comfortable in hot enviroments.

    Where the insertion of membranes into "desert" boots seems to have come from is troops in Afghanistan and Iraq encountering open sewers in their regular foot patrols and literally coming back with boots full of sh1te.

    A membrane prevents this getting to the wearers foot, provided it never breaches the top, but what goes into the top, can't get back out again......

    Therefor I'd be of the opinion that a second boot non lined boot should be on issue to those going to hot dusty climes, Mali, summer in Lebanon, or if we ever go back to africa en masse.

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  33. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    UK multicam is effectively multicam mixed in with the old British DPM pattern. Could surely be done with the current style of Irish DPM.

    Then again, it might end up looking like a dog's dinner!
    When I was in doing my fitness test a few weeks ago and was waiting to sign the vetting form the Coy. Sergeant started talking to me and eventually the topic of the new uniforms came up. He mentioned he'd heard that they might keep the DPM colours but do them in a multicam pattern.

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  35. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BorderBandit View Post
    When I was in doing my fitness test a few weeks ago and was waiting to sign the vetting form the Coy. Sergeant started talking to me and eventually the topic of the new uniforms came up. He mentioned he'd heard that they might keep the DPM colours but do them in a multicam pattern.

    Which might look a bit like the above...

    I imagine it wouldnt be much/any better in arid environments - probably wouldnt look great with multicam/mpt bits either?

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  37. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post

    Which might look a bit like the above...

    I imagine it wouldnt be much/any better in arid environments - probably wouldnt look great with multicam/mpt bits either?
    Yeah, not sure I like the idea. I agree with what APOD said, I like the fact that Irish DPM is Irish. The standard green variation seems to be fine for here and from talking to others seems to do pretty well in european theatres too. I agree there should be a desert pattern brought on stream but I'm not sure how it would be done. Seeing as it would most likely be done in a penny pinching way I think they'd just issue it to deployments to certain regions but that means the admin work would need to be completed in time for the deployment date. Although, I think it was APOD who said that the patent on the camo runs out in 2 years or so? Does that mean the laws regarding reproductions would be relaxed too? If so that offers possible alternatives in the form of private purchases.

    As for boots, I think the scout looks a bit short but from people I've asked they say it's a decent boot.
    Just my thoughts

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