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  1. #1
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Single boot concept

    In the absence of actual proper info from the DF Press office,DJ4 and Ordnance branches let's do what soldiers do best and speculate.
    It is a loosely guarded secret that the DF are purchasing/have purchased a new boot IE the Haix Scout model.
    What is NOT known is pretty much everything else.Mainly due to no articles in the Cosantoir or the so called "Newsletter" Connect (published every 3 months and limited to a couple of pages).Every other Military in the western world publicizes new equipment coming on stream.Sometimes a couple of years in advance.Some even do so online. Keep the troops informed , good for morale etc etc.
    Not here though.Here we get rumours and conjecture. Why is this bad?I will explain in a bit.

    First the rumours.
    1/ Haix scout boot.An ankle high,nubuck and cordura boot will replace the current Haix ,full grain leather,Operational boot.

    2/ Haix scout boot will replace BOTH the current Haix operational boot AND the Magnum Light Operational barrack Boot.

    3/ Haix scout boot will be worn both Overseas and at home.

    4/ Haix scout boot will only be worn "on the ground" with Black barracks being retained for,barracks?

    5/ Soldiers will be issued one pair of Haix scout boots and they will be used for all activities except ceremonial. One pair.That's it.

    6/ Haix scout boots are only to be issued for overseas.

    Now.Anybody with IKON access can read the Minutes of the DF Clothing Committee,but they are scant on detail. So pretty much no help. So why are the above points an issue?

    First off.Troops are still forking out their hard earned money on private purchase boots.As we all know this is for a variety of reasons.Comfort,breathability,waterproofness etc etc. Of course no one told them to do this and theoretically issue tissue is fine in except in many cases it's not.
    The current Magnum Light Op/Bk boots cook your feet on a summer trip to the Leb for example.of course that's because the issue desert boot was withdrawn and the lads forbidden to purchase their own.Which makes tons of sense when you consider that the lads in the hills who patrol night,noon and morning are wearing feet boilers and the handful of Irish staffers in Shama(Sector West HQ) are all wearing Desert boots!!
    So.Lads go out and buy lighter black boots to try to avoid foot problems.Only snag is the supposedly incoming new Haix boot is Brown! Lads will have forked out money for nothing.

    The other issue are no brainers also. One pair of boots for all activities?? Really? So.Troops are supposed to wear the only pair of boot they have all day doing Platoon in attacks on a Standard cse for example.Up to their bollox in mud and water and then change into what when back in camp? The other pair of boots they are not issued? Or a soldier is supposed to wear his one pair of boots all week when doing exercise troops for the cadets and then wear the same scuffed,smelly boots when on duty in Bks on the Saturday? Anyone else see a problem with that? Whatever happened to rotating your boots to give them a chance to dry properly?

    Also.Nubuck.Really? Not bad for breathability if worn as a patrol boot in the Leb or indeed for wear around camp,but how many bogs do we patrol through out there?How many Section attacks on your belt buckle do we do there?(Fingers crossed no). I can see maintenance being a problem with the single obligatory tube of Haix cream being issued with the boots initially(if even) andf then lads being forced to source whatever comes handy as the local shoe shop doesn't stock it.Cue boots ruined with normal polish just to keep the BSM off lads backs for having "dirty" boots.

    As for Brown boots for the ground and black for Barracks.Why? Why not just settle on one or the other.Keep things simple.It might upset the dinosaurs if we change to brown but look back far enough and the DF had brown boots BEFORE black became a thing.

    So.Rant over. What are the take aways?
    1/ Why is their zero news coming out about this most basic but perhaps one the most importants parts of a soldiers kit??We knew about the DPM's 4 years before FFS!
    2/ What can leaders tell the troops to do or not to do regards purchasing boots when there is no info there to aid them in giving direction?
    3/ Is this a false economy? Short term cost cutting vs long term potential foot problems?
    4/ Is duty of care for the troops being f***ed out the window by expecting them to wear one pair of boots all the time with no option to change if they get wet etc?
    5/ Are we setting troops up to fail by issuing a high maintenance boot when the item they need to maintain them is not readily available?

    Opinions please.
    Last edited by apod; 9th August 2018 at 10:09.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  3. #2
    Brigadier General
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    The whole thing is a mess, it's as bad as the 'naval DPM' that is still being pushed by some money wasters.
    Go back to issuing a good low-cost light op desert boot for overseas in hot climates, Lebanon, Syria and Mali. Job done and the troops are happy.
    Wearing heavy goretex leather boots no matter what colour they are in 40o Lebanese summer is going to boil feet.

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  5. #3
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Go back to issuing a good low-cost light op desert boot for overseas in hot climates, Lebanon, Syria and Mali. Job done and the troops are happy.
    I have never understood why people get hung up on doing simple stuff like this. Is it hot climate - yes - heres a desert boot. If not - back to black , mgnums and Haix
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  7. #4
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Are these new boots Goretex (or similar)?


    Why no info? No one has decided?

  8. #5
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Boots must be job/mission specific....... and pardon the pun but one size doesn't fit all!
    Time for another break I think......

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  10. #6
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    The whole idea was to save money.Instead of buying multiple different types of bot that were only good for a specific task.Great.In theory.

    Having said that the new generation Goretex was specifically designed not just to keep your feet dry but to keep them cooler too.
    ePTFE is being put into a alot of the newer desert boot models because of this.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  12. #7
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    Whens the Navel DPM coming on stream??

  13. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/d...w-combat-boots

    British Army now have 5 types (no doubt there are different models under each heading)

  14. #9
    Brigadier General
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    Whens the Navel DPM coming on stream??
    Hopefully never but the clowns behind it are pushing it hard and will likely get their way.

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  16. #10
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Hopefully never but the clowns behind it are pushing it hard and will likely get their way.
    "International best Practice" Eh? Funny that the Yanks just wadi'ed their Bluebottle uniforms 'cos the only thing they blended in with was the sea when you fell overboard!!

    But I digress.Back on topic.Just spotted this.
    http://www.joint-forces.com/products...ut-combat-boot
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  18. #11
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Something occurred to me when reading the post above. The MOU we signed with Britain... would this not cover situations like this, i. e. The British have done the legwork in terms of investigating boot upgrades, and instead of the British MOD ordering 200,000 pairs of cold temperate boots at unit cost X, they order 250,000 pairs at unit cost X, and the Irish DOD pick up the tab for the 50,000 pairs. Instead of the above situation where Irish taxpayers' hard earned moolah has been expended, reinventing the wheel. Just my 2c worth...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  20. #12
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Something occurred to me when reading the post above. The MOU we signed with Britain... would this not cover situations like this, i. e. The British have done the legwork in terms of investigating boot upgrades, and instead of the British MOD ordering 200,000 pairs of cold temperate boots at unit cost X, they order 250,000 pairs at unit cost X, and the Irish DOD pick up the tab for the 50,000 pairs. Instead of the above situation where Irish taxpayers' hard earned moolah has been expended, reinventing the wheel. Just my 2c worth...
    Could do the same with uniforms, until hi-vis tricolours are required on the border

  21. #13
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Could do the same with uniforms, until hi-vis tricolours are required on the border
    Didn't someone say there might be a review of the unifrom DPM pattern in the near future?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  23. #14
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Yep.Apparently the patent on our current pattern runs out in 2 years.
    Board due to sit to look into what way to proceed.Wing are looking for Multicam,considering they can be tasked to go to any environment at short notice it kinda makes sense for them.
    For us.I am not convinced.
    Our pattern is one of the better ones out there and identifies us straight away.Two many forces wearing Multicam or derivatives of same at the moment.As the saying goes "Once everybody is special,no-one is".
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  24. #15
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Which is grand until you need to blend in

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  26. #16
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    The other important thing for boots for the corps units of course is that they must be compliant with the en standard for safety toe protection,

  27. #17
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exile View Post
    The other important thing for boots for the corps units of course is that they must be compliant with the en standard for safety toe protection,
    Apparently there is a safe toe boot on trial also.Kinda puts paid to the whole single boot concept that though.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  29. #18
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Our pattern is one of the better ones out there and identifies us straight away.
    I presume you mean when there's a multitude of different nations troops together in a non tactical or UN type gathering??? A corporate identity, so to speak.

    A more focused question would be does the pattern work to actually hide troops in tactical environments at home or abroad? Then i want something that actually works rather than identifies the "Irish looking shrubbery lurking around in the field over there".

    After that is answered I'd then suggest that if camoflague is the priority then the options are two-fold:
    1. Go with multicam type dpm because its been proven to work and camoflague troops in various terrains.
    2. Accept that Irish dpm works in Ireland (fine) but doesn't work in the middle east or africa (not fine). Then you have to issue an arid climate version to work in the areas we are mostly commonly going (probably not fine for DoD accountants!)
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqus are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  30. #19
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    Keep in mind that the majority of our overseas deployment will have us driving white vehicles while wearing blue covered helmets and body armour, and it may be the case that the current pattern is fit for purpose, except for those few occasions when an arid climate version may be needed.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  32. #20
    BQMS EUFighter's Avatar
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    We do have an arid desert pattern, probably good also for summer in the Middle East.
    http://camopedia.org/index.php?title...esert_dpm1.jpg

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  34. #21
    BQMS EUFighter's Avatar
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    If we want our friends the Swedes and Finns are through NORDEFCO currently with the other members tendering for a new Nordic Combat Uniform and it might be possible to join or take the same uniform system (if not the pattern).
    http://www.nordefco.org/commonuniform

    And before someone asks, no I do nt know if it will be covered by PESCO.

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  36. #22
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    UK Multicam looks very effective.... noticed it recently on some tv program I was watching.

    Its going to be hard to come up with some 'different' without looking like someone elses.

    No point to re invent the wheel regarding boots. Safety boots are fine for second line and in barrack work or at sea after that buy what everyone else buys.
    Time for another break I think......

  37. #23
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    UK Multicam looks very effective.... noticed it recently on some tv program I was watching.

    Its going to be hard to come up with some 'different' without looking like someone elses.

    No point to re invent the wheel regarding boots. Safety boots are fine for second line and in barrack work or at sea after that buy what everyone else buys.
    UK multicam is effectively multicam mixed in with the old British DPM pattern. Could surely be done with the current style of Irish DPM.

    Then again, it might end up looking like a dog's dinner!

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  39. #24
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    I presume you mean when there's a multitude of different nations troops together in a non tactical or UN type gathering??? A corporate identity, so to speak.
    Precisely.Not just limited to non-tac though.Having an easily recognisable pattern can also be an aid to force protection.Look at the issues the 1st Tpt Coy had in Somalia when wearing american "Chocalate chip" dessies. Brexit could also causes issues for us with a possible return to border patrols.


    A more focused question would be does the pattern work to actually hide troops in tactical environments at home or abroad? Then i want something that actually works rather than identifies the "Irish looking shrubbery lurking around in the field over there".

    Our current pattern works fine in temperate conditions.Not great in arid conditions.


    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    Keep in mind that the majority of our overseas deployment will have us driving white vehicles while wearing blue covered helmets and body armour, and it may be the case that the current pattern is fit for purpose, except for those few occasions when an arid climate version may be needed.
    You would think wouldn't you. ARW looked for the Dessies for Chad.Bean counters refused citing "force protection" as an excuse as they supposedly didn't want us looking like the French in Desert gear.This despite the fact that the French lads were wearing temperate CE Camo out there As for Temperate Irish DPM being fit for purpose in arid climates.Dark colours retain heat.Lighter colours don't. Go figure.
    Safety boots are fine for second line and in barrack work or at sea after that buy what everyone else buys.
    NS are having serious problems with their current issue boot at sea.Cooking the lads feet.They are going to look for a replacement to go with their new vanity project uniform apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    UK multicam is effectively multicam mixed in with the old British DPM pattern. Could surely be done with the current style of Irish DPM.

    Then again, it might end up looking like a dog's dinner!
    Swiss army are looking to do the same with their current pattern and multicam.Doesn't look too bad either but nothing like MTP though.Closer to their own pattern.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  40. #25
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    NS are having serious problems with their current issue boot at sea.Cooking the lads feet.They are going to look for a replacement to go with their new vanity project uniform apparently.
    You could visit any comercial supplier and trial any amount of types and someone will always have some problem....and you could probably have them hand made if they got off the idea about naval DPM...if you need to be invisible aboard a ship you hide in a fan room or in the steering flat..and snore quitely!!!!
    Time for another break I think......

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