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Thread: Cadet Payscale

  1. #1
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    Cadet Payscale

    Hi All,

    I'm just wondering if someone could let me know how the Cadet Payscale works?
    Does it increase every 3 months,, or upon hitting landmarks?

    Thank you!

  2. #2
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Cadets are point 1 the first year and point 2 for the second.

    The further points are irrelevant as cadets won't reach point 3 if all goes well.

    No monthly increases or for landmarks etc. Cadets don't have much time to be spending their pay anyway!

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I assume points 3 and above are for AC cadets (not sure about NS)

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    As Auldsod said, you go in on Pt 1, after 12 full months, you go on Pt 2. If all goes to plan you end up commissioned after a few months on Pt 2. If you got back classed for any reason you would end up on Pt 3.

    Cadet pay has improved a lot over the years but is still crap. We used to get bills that might be €400 at times from a salary of €1100pm

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    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    As Auldsod said, you go in on Pt 1, after 12 full months, you go on Pt 2. If all goes to plan you end up commissioned after a few months on Pt 2. If you got back classed for any reason you would end up on Pt 3.

    Cadet pay has improved a lot over the years but is still crap. We used to get bills that might be €400 at times from a salary of €1100pm
    Agreed.

    You're not in your cadetship (or the DF) to make money. Best to suck it up and get the bump up after commissioning.

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    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I assume points 3 and above are for AC cadets (not sure about NS)
    NS cadetship comes in under two years unless backclassed for whatever reason.

    Not sure how long flight training is in the AC and if that pushes into a third year. Would seem exceptionally long to be in essentially a basic training environment (even though I've same opinion about the NS cadetships).

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    NS cadetship comes in under two years unless backclassed for whatever reason.

    Not sure how long flight training is in the AC and if that pushes into a third year. Would seem exceptionally long to be in essentially a basic training environment (even though I've same opinion about the NS cadetships).
    AC is 3 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    AC is 3 years
    Dev, duration of AC cadetships are not written in stone and what you state as fact is a rough estimate.

    AC cadetships vary widely. From intake to commissioning has taken as little as two years to as long as three and a half in recent times.

    A RACO document published recently forecasts that the current class which will commence ground school very soon are looking at up to four years, from intake to commissioning, and that the next class to be inducted very soon will potentially be in training for between 4-5 years. So, the extra payscales will most certainly be used. Significant changes have been made to the wings course to try and speed up the training. Time will tell as to whether it will affect the end product.

    As there was last year, for a short period of time there will be four classes of almost 40 AC cadets all in various stages of training.

    The idiotic decision to not recruit any AC cadets in 2008 & 2009 and the subsequent recruitment of tiny classes of 3-5 is the chicken coming home to roost. Of course, no one could have accurately forecast the large scale exodus (of mainly rotary crews) but to ignore natural wastage is criminal. But, as per, no one faces accountability.

    More pilots are scheduled to retire this year already than cadets who are expected to be commissioned. This doesn't include ATC which has its own HR issues.

    To the OP, unless you have significant existing financial commitments (mortgage/rent, kids etc) you will survive just fine.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Absolutely and the length can vary depending on weather, aircraft availability and instr availability

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    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Dev, duration of AC cadetships are not written in stone and what you state as fact is a rough estimate.

    AC cadetships vary widely. From intake to commissioning has taken as little as two years to as long as three and a half in recent times.

    A RACO document published recently forecasts that the current class which will commence ground school very soon are looking at up to four years, from intake to commissioning, and that the next class to be inducted very soon will potentially be in training for between 4-5 years. So, the extra payscales will most certainly be used. Significant changes have been made to the wings course to try and speed up the training. Time will tell as to whether it will affect the end product.

    As there was last year, for a short period of time there will be four classes of almost 40 AC cadets all in various stages of training.

    The idiotic decision to not recruit any AC cadets in 2008 & 2009 and the subsequent recruitment of tiny classes of 3-5 is the chicken coming home to roost. Of course, no one could have accurately forecast the large scale exodus (of mainly rotary crews) but to ignore natural wastage is criminal. But, as per, no one faces accountability.

    More pilots are scheduled to retire this year already than cadets who are expected to be commissioned. This doesn't include ATC which has its own HR issues.

    To the OP, unless you have significant existing financial commitments (mortgage/rent, kids etc) you will survive just fine.
    Three and half years is very long. Surely an argument for commissioning pre-winging there. The officer could always be binned or moved into a ground role if flight training is failed.

    I may be making a massive assumption here but there have surely been cases where cadets have being winged but have failed training on type afterwards?

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    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    The Air Corps is the one branch of the DF I have very little knowledge of. I am very surprised that the Air Corps is not able to define the length of time it takes to train Air Corps cadets. Both the Army and Naval Service are able to set out the length of time for the various stages but the Air Corps is not (per military.ie).

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    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    The Air Corps is the one branch of the DF I have very little knowledge of. I am very surprised that the Air Corps is not able to define the length of time it takes to train Air Corps cadets. Both the Army and Naval Service are able to set out the length of time for the various stages but the Air Corps is not (per military.ie).
    It may be dependent on a number of factors such as aircraft availability and other operational needs. Having only eight aircraft for a large number of cadets can't help either. I can see why it's far more difficult for the AC to stick a time on the flight training portion but like yourself Bravo20, I can't claim to have a great deal of knowledge.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    When your weather dependent ....

    I think I read somewhere that since the PC9 pilots are failing later in the wings course than with the Marchetti/Fouga

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Three and half years is very long. Surely an argument for commissioning pre-winging there. The officer could always be binned or moved into a ground role if flight training is failed.

    I may be making a massive assumption here but there have surely been cases where cadets have being winged but have failed training on type afterwards?
    You are correct. Your suggestion makes total sense. However. If you are a bean counter it saves money to pay an individual as a cadet at €18k per year rather than as an officer at €30k+ a year. That is the only reason as far as I can see.

    I have never heard of anyone failing a type conversion course after completing a wings course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    The Air Corps is the one branch of the DF I have very little knowledge of. I am very surprised that the Air Corps is not able to define the length of time it takes to train Air Corps cadets. Both the Army and Naval Service are able to set out the length of time for the various stages but the Air Corps is not (per military.ie).
    You cannot expect a defined time when the longest and most important part of the course is entirely dependent on weather which is completely outside of anyone's control. Somewhere between 30-40% of planned sorties are cancelled by weather. This is before you consider aircraft servicability and instructor availability. The army and naval service don't have to suffer to the same extent, especially in relation to the weather.

    A service bulletin for a specific maintenance aspect can ground a fleet. That can't be planned for.

    There are so many variables that cannot be predicted, hence why there is no definitive plan.

    A class of 10 will take significantly longer than 5 simply because there are only so many slots per day. Its just simple maths before you consider all the other variables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    You cannot expect a defined time when the longest and most important part of the course is entirely dependent on weather which is completely outside of anyone's control. Somewhere between 30-40% of planned sorties are cancelled by weather. This is before you consider aircraft servicability and instructor availability. The army and naval service don't have to suffer to the same extent, especially in relation to the weather.

    A service bulletin for a specific maintenance aspect can ground a fleet. That can't be planned for.

    There are so many variables that cannot be predicted, hence why there is no definitive plan.

    A class of 10 will take significantly longer than 5 simply because there are only so many slots per day. Its just simple maths before you consider all the other variables.
    I would be interested to see how the RAF manage to gauge how long it will take to do basic flight training to within a few weeks? I'd assume a greater number of instructors and aircraft coupled with a steadier pipeline of students allows for them to take advantage of the weather when it's good.

    I know in the US military, flight training takes places in the sunnier more arid areas of the US where they are less likely to have issues with the weather and other restrictions on operation.

  21. #17
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Strangely enough the RAF seem to be able to put a time scale on their flight training. I believe the UK has similar weather to ourselves. Of course they commission their officers after initial officer training and before flight training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Strangely enough the RAF seem to be able to put a time scale on their flight training. I believe the UK has similar weather to ourselves. Of course they commission their officers after initial officer training and before flight training.
    You are comparing two completely different animals and with massively different amounts of resources.

    Not sure what your point is.

    I know first hand that there is and has been significant "slippage" to course durations in the "mighty" RAF as well. The brochures only tell one side of the story.

    It's really not a hard concept to understand. When you have a different number of cadets being recruited annually, say 6 one year and 12 the following year, the larger class is going to take longer so how can you expect a definitive timeline when all the other variables have to be taken into account also.
    Last edited by Chuck; 21st August 2018 at 17:07.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The RAF have much more aircraft, techs and instructors.... yes they also have more students but there is spare capability in there
    Last edited by DeV; 21st August 2018 at 17:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The RAF have much more aircraft, techs and instructors
    And vastly fewer students...

    Surely this, as well as the endless whining about the weather and not having the tools and people to do the flying bit of Officer Cadet training just rams home the truth that you'd be far better off doing the flying bit at either a private outfit in the US or southern Europe, or just loading the candidates on other nations flying training programs...

    (Of course, Irish requirements are special, no other operator has to fly in rain, or above the sea, or in aircraft with paint on them, or whatever utter bollocks excuse the self-licking lollipop can come up with for operating almost twice as many training aircraft as it does operational aircraft...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    And vastly fewer students...

    Surely this, as well as the endless whining about the weather and not having the tools and people to do the flying bit of Officer Cadet training just rams home the truth that you'd be far better off doing the flying bit at either a private outfit in the US or southern Europe, or just loading the candidates on other nations flying training programs...

    (Of course, Irish requirements are special, no other operator has to fly in rain, or above the sea, or in aircraft with paint on them, or whatever utter bollocks excuse the self-licking lollipop can come up with for operating almost twice as many training aircraft as it does operational aircraft...
    Your post is quite ironic in a way. Although you are clearly trying to portray the status quo as a typical "Irish solution to an Irish problem". Your only recommendation is to suggest an even more Irish solution to an Irish problem and that is to outsource with absolutely no facts or figures to back it up. Just outsource. Wonderful problem solving.

    If you can bear with me for a second and leave behind your sour bitter scorn for all things AC related. Can you explain how identifying the Irish climate as a significant determinimg factor in the length of cadet flying training is as you so eloquently put it "utter bollox"? I realise you were specifically referring to the number or training aircraft but I'll assume the attitude applies to you entire post.

    Certain disciplines require specific type of weather. You can't do basic circuits if the wind is outside of limits. You can't do VFR navigation if the cloud base is too low or visibility is too poor. You can't do IFR if the cloud is on the deck or the weather at your alternate is below limits.

    You can't even tow the aircraft outside the hanger if the wind is forecast to be above what the manufacturer says is safe.

    These are all manufacturer limitations, SOPs and regulations, all of which are designed to keep the crew and the aircraft intact.

    If you have some cost benefit analysis from any other nation I'd love to read it. Or is this just a case of "sure it must be cheaper because I said so"
    Last edited by Chuck; 21st August 2018 at 20:11.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Also stuff like you could have 4 aircraft available for 6 in a senior class and 10 in a junior class, the senior class only having 1 instr available and the junior class having 2

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    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Listen you can blame the lack of aircraft, training instructors and operational needs for not being able to keep to a schedule, I'll buy that. But when you start pulling the weather card you are just trying to blow smoke up my arse.

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  31. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    You are correct. Your suggestion makes total sense. However. If you are a bean counter it saves money to pay an individual as a cadet at €18k per year rather than as an officer at €30k+ a year. That is the only reason as far as I can see.

    I have never heard of anyone failing a type conversion course after completing a wings course.
    If the bean counters are into saving money, why do they commission officers and THEN send them to University on higher wages? Could argue flight school is University equivalent

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    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The point made above though ; would you not stick them on an intensive 6 months learn-to-fly IFR-in-6-months in the USA - say Arizona ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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