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  1. #1
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    RDF Courses and Promotions

    Just a quick question on promotions and courses as there seems to be some confusion in the unit as to the rules.

    When it comes to being loaded onto a PNCO, Standards, POC or any other course, my understanding that the applicant has to meet the requirements of the course with regards to rank and KPIs. The applicant also needs to be recommended by their unit and must be of course willing to go on the course.

    My question relates to seniority when getting on courses. I've heard from my unit that if two applicants apply, seniority will be a big deciding factor in seeing who gets on the course. I've read that the way promotion (and their courses) is done differently since the Croke Park agreement and now seniority can't be taken as a factor and it's solely down to performance and other metrics. I know this was agreed with RACO and PDFORRA. I don't think RDFRA was in the room.

    Any clarifications from the more knowledgeable members of the board here? I'm assuming myself that seniority is a consideration but wouldn't be part of the official decision making process?

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  3. #2
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    All other things being equal seniority may become a factor.

    It is very rare, though, that all other things are equal.

    PDF nominations for courses are governed by an Instruction.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  5. #3
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I assume you mean RDF?

    Courses and promotions are two very separate issues

    Promotions:
    To Cpl (and commissioning as 2/Lt) is in RDF more of less guaranteed on completion of relevant course
    All other ranks depends on the rank being promoted to, criteria are set in DFR R5 and Admin Inst R5

    Places on courses:
    You apply, you must meet the criteria on the Joining Instructions (eg have grade 3 fitness, ECDL, PWT compeleted etc etc (depends on the course)).

    One criteria that is always on it is, recommended by CO. Your sub-unit commander will forward a list of people he is recommending to the CO, he may alter if he sees fit. Bde HQ may then alter the list if they see fit. This is where seniority could become a factor at the sub-unit level.

    If the course is being conducted by another Bde, that Bde can alter the list to. It is that Bde that selects the personnel to undergo the course (or your own Bde if in the same Bde). A nomination doesn’t equal selection to undergo the course.




    Now if a unit is turning down people for RDF career courses because they say we are only going to nominate 1 of say 3 applicants that is a serious issue ..... because career courses are not being filled

  6. #4
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I assume you mean RDF?


    One criteria that is always on it is, recommended by CO. Your sub-unit commander will forward a list of people he is recommending to the CO, he may alter if he sees fit. Bde HQ may then alter the list if they see fit. This is where seniority could become a factor at the sub-unit level.


    That's where I was wondering about seniority. The proposals from 2011 would have eliminated that as a factor for the PDF. Maybe it wasn't implemented as surely the representative bodies would have received some concerns from members about how it could impact them negatively.

    Essentially, the proposals would disallow one member from being selected over another for a course solely due to seniority. Apparently giving someone preference due to age or time in service is discriminatory. Personally I think seniority makes since from a selection perspective but I can see how it dilutes the process from being a purely merit based one.

    I was indeed referring to the RDF.

  7. #5
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Also. From documentation sent to the minister in 2014. Implemented for officers fro promotions anyway.

    'Officers - New merit based promotion systems which reflect modern HR standards,
    including the elimination of seniority and the introduction of merit based systems of
    promotion at all levels, have been agreed and implemented for Generals and Officers
    up to the rank of Colonel. '

  8. #6
    Lt General
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    The other side of that coin is, only after serving for a certain period of time do you get a chance to fulfil all the courses and overseas service criteria which would give you most points.
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  9. #7
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The RDF regulations date from 2005 with relatively minor amendments since

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  11. #8
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The RDF regulations date from 2005 with relatively minor amendments since
    You would imagine that the PDF regulations should be de facto implemented for the RDF even if not in place. Then again, regulations are regulations!

  12. #9
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    I think you need to differenciate between nominations for courses and promotions. Promotions are only supposed to take into consideration seniority when all other things are equal. Nominations for courses is a different matter. Maybe or PDF collegues can enlighten us as to the nomination process for courses. Is it still the recommendation of the CO or can people just apply directly?

  13. #10
    CQMS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I think you need to differenciate between nominations for courses and promotions. Promotions are only supposed to take into consideration seniority when all other things are equal. Nominations for courses is a different matter. Maybe or PDF collegues can enlighten us as to the nomination process for courses. Is it still the recommendation of the CO or can people just apply directly?
    Virtually everything in the DF requires the recommendation of your CO, leave, overseas (can be overruled), courses, promotions, transfers (can be overruled) etc.

    Selection for NCO career courses (PNCO, Std NCO, SNCO, Logs Acct Cse) require a Bde level board to sit, comprised of 1 x Comdt, 1 x Capt and 1 x BSM / BQMS or equivalent. Massive levels of complexity added to a system that will virtually always result in a redress or an appeal.

    Personally, I do not think it should apply for PNCO Cse but think that it is appropriate for the other courses as offers of promotion will not be restricted to your unit unlike promotion to Cpl. The difficulty is that units apply no filters and everyone that applies gets before the Board so they could have 150 applications to do file review assessments on

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  15. #11
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    All interesting replies. I'm just interested to see if someone can get promoted fairly quickly assuming they have the time for the courses or if they de-facto have to spend a significant amount of time at private or corporal before they can get loaded onto the various promotion courses.

    What's the usual progression in years or would there be meteoric fast movers who move up the ranks quickly?

  16. #12
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    All interesting replies. I'm just interested to see if someone can get promoted fairly quickly assuming they have the time for the courses or if they de-facto have to spend a significant amount of time at private or corporal before they can get loaded onto the various promotion courses.

    What's the usual progression in years or would there be meteoric fast movers who move up the ranks quickly?
    Recruit to 3* generally takes approx 2 years (recruit to 2* and 2* to 3* are upgrades not promotions), after that you’d spend more than likely min 1 year as a Pte 3*.

    If it is felt that your suitable you can the be recommended for PNCO, which is a year long. So you could be promoted to Corporal within 4 years.

    All that of course depends on your availability to complete courses as they come up.

    After that it will depend on vacancies, ability etc

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