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  • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Pity the Interconnector to France didn't get underway a few years ago... Though would it have anyway if not for the current circumstances?
    Also a bit off Topic but it's strange seeing some of the photos inside H&W's halls and facilities now that they have gone into Administration.
    I do NOT trust those that are rushing to connect to off island power sources as it has a built-in strategic deficit in times of changed needs. We have shed more than 1000mw in recent years and could become dependent if we dont boost on Island generation. I am more than worried by the Ringaskiddy developments and likely impact on Navy and NMCI. It seems nobody is in charge and we are subject to fait accompli.
    HW is a huge asset to these islands and should be retained in most part due to it's huge drydock and repair capacity, if NOT Building? Britain does NOT have enough merchant tonnage to be Independent of hire and charter.

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    • There was a plan by the DF not long ago to have at least one wind turbine on the island. There are already 4 others based in nearby pharma plants. The infrastructure is already in place to connect these to grid. I think the old pylons supplying irish steel were 220mw lines. This would make haulbowline cost neutral in terms of energy consumption, with the added benefit of sending surplus electricity onto the main grid.
      There are also plans in the lower harbour to install battery storage within the perimeter of the soon to be decommissioned 1980s Aghada power station.
      Interconnectors are only good for one side, those who are supplying. The UK has realised just recently that most of their power now comes from France. BREXIT may cause difficulties here.
      The elephant in the room is nuclear power. A properly managed and located nuclear power plant can provide a steady source for the majority of our peak power requirements.
      Both France and Germany have an excellent safety record in operation of these plants for almost half a century. Interesting article in yesterday's examiner regarding the pros and cons.
      Until tide and wave power can be efficiently harnessed, we need a reliable alternative source.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        There was a plan by the DF not long ago to have at least one wind turbine on the island. There are already 4 others based in nearby pharma plants. The infrastructure is already in place to connect these to grid. I think the old pylons supplying irish steel were 220mw lines. This would make haulbowline cost neutral in terms of energy consumption, with the added benefit of sending surplus electricity onto the main grid.
        There are also plans in the lower harbour to install battery storage within the perimeter of the soon to be decommissioned 1980s Aghada power station.
        Interconnectors are only good for one side, those who are supplying. The UK has realised just recently that most of their power now comes from France. BREXIT may cause difficulties here.
        The elephant in the room is nuclear power. A properly managed and located nuclear power plant can provide a steady source for the majority of our peak power requirements.
        Both France and Germany have an excellent safety record in operation of these plants for almost half a century. Interesting article in yesterday's examiner regarding the pros and cons.
        Until tide and wave power can be efficiently harnessed, we need a reliable alternative source.
        Sorry. To be more specific I meant the Island of Ireland. We are in danger of being dependent on the UK connector and France if it occurs. As I pointed out 1000mw have already been shut down with more to follow. In a strategic sense this will leave us short of controllable power. This Government are shedding responsibility by Privatising--Power, Transport, Post and Communications, Harbours and ability to Trade Internationally . Because they are at a distance from key infrastructures they are less likely to see or stop problems. At some stage we must use Nuclear Power as we are probably using it over the Irish sea Interconnector.

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        • For the suggestions of nuclear power even leaving out the massive political and public resistance to such a proposal has anyone paid attention to the over runs the new generation in the UK and France are seeing? If today planning was granted by magic it would be the better part of 20+ years before it would be supplying into the grid, hell just look at the massive delay in bringing the Corrib field online and that was a "minor" issue of the terminal. A Nuclear plant? I'd bet most of us would be long dead before an Irish plant was operational.

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          • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            For the suggestions of nuclear power even leaving out the massive political and public resistance to such a proposal has anyone paid attention to the over runs the new generation in the UK and France are seeing? If today planning was granted by magic it would be the better part of 20+ years before it would be supplying into the grid, hell just look at the massive delay in bringing the Corrib field online and that was a "minor" issue of the terminal. A Nuclear plant? I'd bet most of us would be long dead before an Irish plant was operational.
            Corrib was delayed due to not factoring in local opposition , regulatory blockages , re-routing pipeline, and optimism bias from owners and Agencies.
            Nuclear options in face of alternative dirty or variable sources has to be assessed.
            The cost per kw hour, for nuclear, can be between Euro 5000 and Euro 2500 depending on whose plant you build. The cheaper one is of Chinese origin and the dearer would be from western sources. A 4mw plant might cost Euro 10 Billion. and would be of Asian origin.

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            • My personal favourite to develop would be Waterford really. Much better shelter than Rosslare and has a motorway. I'd relieve Dublin and Cork of most port duties and use the land to develop the inner city.

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              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                My personal favourite to develop would be Waterford really. Much better shelter than Rosslare and has a motorway. I'd relieve Dublin and Cork of most port duties and use the land to develop the inner city.
                Cork is already going that way over the next couple of decades anyway as the Port moves down, as seen by the recent spate of high rise planning developments at the old Port of Cork area of the island and on the South Bank. As for Dublin, there was the suggestion of moving it North between Belfast and Dublin and using the Land but Dublin Port basically said "feck off" though the same crowd are now suggesting infilling Dublin Bay for development.

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                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  Corrib was delayed due to not factoring in local opposition , regulatory blockages , re-routing pipeline, and optimism bias from owners and Agencies.
                  Nuclear options in face of alternative dirty or variable sources has to be assessed.
                  The cost per kw hour, for nuclear, can be between Euro 5000 and Euro 2500 depending on whose plant you build. The cheaper one is of Chinese origin and the dearer would be from western sources. A 4mw plant might cost Euro 10 Billion. and would be of Asian origin.
                  There was a hell of a lot more than that that went on up there, but the point stands. All the issues you highlighted will be only magnified in a Nuclear Plant. Moreover Green movements have pretty much made Nuclear as politically DOA as heavy polluting sources, that's before you even get into what subsidies the plant would need from central government, and building the plant.

                  I'm sorry but I'll stick with my view that whatever argument might be made regarding how Clean it is, we aren't going to see a Nuclear plant built on the island within our lifetimes, even if the Government started the process tomorrow (which would of course also bring down the Government at once).

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                  • The is an excellent video from the Irish "Real Engineering" youtube channel where the problems related to green energy are discussed. What becomes very clear is the focus on the generation is not the key issue it will be how do you store that energy for when you need it. For us at this latitudes we generate most renewables during the summer when we get the most energy from the sun. This is true for solar and for wind! But our peak demand for that energy will be in the dark cold months of Feb/March. Pump storage could be a solution but then there will be that special snail that has to be preserved. We as a race, not only as a nation will have to make some very important choices but are we informed enough? Maybe we will have no other option but to build a mega interconnector to France and take their nuclear generated electricity.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5cm7HOAqZY

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                    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                      My personal favourite to develop would be Waterford really. Much better shelter than Rosslare and has a motorway. I'd relieve Dublin and Cork of most port duties and use the land to develop the inner city.
                      Are you suggesting a further development of Belview Port? The biggest limitation will be draught, this is currently 8-9m at Belview.
                      Ringaskiddy has 13.4m which might not seem like a lot but Belview is a long way in from the mouth of Waterford harbour, that is a lot of dredging.

                      In any case the traffic will go where it is cheapest, that is a fact of life. Remember Dublin and Cork are the two biggest population centres in the country and thus are always going to need ports in or near them.

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                      • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        Are you suggesting a further development of Belview Port? The biggest limitation will be draught, this is currently 8-9m at Belview.
                        Ringaskiddy has 13.4m which might not seem like a lot but Belview is a long way in from the mouth of Waterford harbour, that is a lot of dredging.

                        In any case the traffic will go where it is cheapest, that is a fact of life. Remember Dublin and Cork are the two biggest population centres in the country and thus are always going to need ports in or near them.
                        The overall problem is that the state and its agencies have no idea of the importance of Ports and Trade. They sink Marine matters in the bowels of other Departments and are NOT proactive in making our Island of Ireland Independent. So Port development lies in the hands of beneficiaries such as shippers and developers. The result is piecemeal expansion to suit particular trades which can be transient depending on whether you provided a feeder service for smaller vessels or you become a transhipment hub to take large ocean going tonnage.
                        Waterford as a point for development has Duncannon Spit which is dredged to a maintained depth of 6.5 meters. It has 3.3m on top of that at the lowest High Water (Neaps). A vessel with 9m draft might scrape over it at slow low squat speed. All vessels will be constrained by the height of tide range.
                        Before developing Waterford major dredging would be required to give depths suitable for vessels of 9 meters at low water.
                        The Cork Harbour development is likely to be a shambles as the development space is too congested and may damage permanent users such as the Naval service. Perhaps they should look at the east side of the harbour with potential to create land banks for containers and improvable road system with access to motorways.

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                        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                          There was a hell of a lot more than that that went on up there, but the point stands. All the issues you highlighted will be only magnified in a Nuclear Plant. Moreover Green movements have pretty much made Nuclear as politically DOA as heavy polluting sources, that's before you even get into what subsidies the plant would need from central government, and building the plant.

                          I'm sorry but I'll stick with my view that whatever argument might be made regarding how Clean it is, we aren't going to see a Nuclear plant built on the island within our lifetimes, even if the Government started the process tomorrow (which would of course also bring down the Government at once).
                          My reply to the suggestion of nuclear power in Ireland is "have you ever heard the expressions 'ah sure, it's gonna be grand'?".

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            Are you suggesting a further development of Belview Port? The biggest limitation will be draught, this is currently 8-9m at Belview.
                            Ringaskiddy has 13.4m which might not seem like a lot but Belview is a long way in from the mouth of Waterford harbour, that is a lot of dredging.

                            In any case the traffic will go where it is cheapest, that is a fact of life. Remember Dublin and Cork are the two biggest population centres in the country and thus are always going to need ports in or near them.
                            Belview port or across the river from t. And yes the need for dredging is pretty clear. As for logistical requirements - not so sure. How much of a port does London have?

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                            • Ireland building an NP station is about as likely as Ireland building a 6th gen stealth fighter - and for the same reason: you don't have the people to design it, certify it, build it and operate it.

                              The UK, which has experience - though not recent - of building NP stations, has had enormous difficulties building the new power stations because those who built them in the 80's have long since retired - my dad, in his 70's, who isn't a nuclear engineer but who designed some of the sub-systems, has been dragged out of retirement several times to work on Hinckley Point C, and for not far off footballers wages - the office he's been working in is full of blokes in their 60's, 70's and even 80's because the recent experience just isn't there.

                              If the design/build had started 5 years later, those people would no longer have been available - and the project would have died in the mud.

                              If you're interested, the going rate for a senior engineer with any experience whatsoever of a nuclear build is about £1000 per day. There were over 200 ex-retirees working in my dad's Office, and that's been going on for the best part of a decade.

                              It's money in quantities so large that they are beyond numbers...

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                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                                Belview port or across the river from t. And yes the need for dredging is pretty clear. As for logistical requirements - not so sure. How much of a port does London have?
                                London is still one of the biggest ports in the UK even if it never has recovered from the Blitz. Tilbury is the main terminal used today but London has the advantage of a large number of ports in close proximity, Dover, Medway, Ramsgate.....
                                Also just in recent years they have developed a new port area called London Gateway.

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