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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In order to make Foynes a major container port the State would have to reclaim lands to the N'eastrly side of the present bulk berths. Install harbour infrastructure and handling facilities, dredge the northern mud blockages to create an entry channel in the South and an exit to the Northern side of Foynes Island. The road out of Foynes has a number of small fixed bridges over streams and would need to be certified suitable for continuous road container traffic. I think the visualisation of the proponents would take investments close to a billion+ to achieve. In any event, whatever is decided , it should be on the East Bank of the river to save dragging cargo through Limerick.
    The plan is to build 16km of motorway from Patrickswell to Rathkeale. This will bypass Adare to the north instead of the original plan which went to the south of the village but didn't get planning. By taking the road to the north it will run closer to the coast road (N69). They will then build a new 15.5km grade-separated single carriageway (GSSC) road directly to Foynes port. A HGV leaving Foynes port in 2024 should travel only 15.5 km on high-quality single carriageway (with no junctions, just flyovers and underpasses. No villages) before joining the motorway and access to Galway, Shannon, Dublin, Belfast etc.

    Details and a map can be found here:

    http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/ine...s/m21/m21.html

    The new road from the M21 to Foynes is marked in Green. By 2124 the M20 might even reach Cork.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    Any Movement on the LNG terminal outside Tarbert by the way?
    Huge progress at last in August:

    https://www.independent.ie/business/...-37248932.html

    More NIMBY shite in October:

    https://greennews.ie/leave-granted-h...inal-co-kerry/

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The major European ports for services from Ireland would be ROTTERDAM or FELIXSTOWE. If we were considering an Irish Port as a feeder to a variety of European container ports then we should be aiming to get vessels, otherwise heading to Europe, to land in Ireland for feeding on to the continent, ideally by Irish ships. I did a little stint on MV Wicklow taking containers from Dublin to Rotterdam . They also had the KILKENNY until it collided with an outbound container vessel HASSELWERDER. Right now we have nothing but we still plan on the assumption that someone else will do it for us. The Governments stated policy on port development is Laissez-faire on projects or fit them with financial brakes that makes them meaningless .
    A ocean LoLo service to Ireland is only viable if there will be a few hundred containers transhipped on every sailing and of course that there is more than 1 service calling at the port.

  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    A ocean LoLo service to Ireland is only viable if there will be a few hundred containers transhipped on every sailing and of course that there is more than 1 service calling at the port.
    The Ocean Containership similar to Maersk or to the Chinese COSCO will carry up to 20,000 TEU's ( 20ft ) or 10,000 2/TEU's ( 40ft). They would be handled by a container loading/unloading facility having a single berth with 6 container cranes to cover dispersal of container units on or off a 900ft vessel. The port facility needs storage for containers arriving by road/rail and waiting to be loaded also facilities for containers arriving by ship and awaiting clearance and shipping to another destination. If you are to hande two ships at a time then two berths would need 12 container cranes.
    Feeder services to other ports would also impact on a further provision of suitable berthing and handling facilities. Initial costs would be eye watering. But we should consider it.

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  8. #55
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    Was talking to a Merchant Master earlier this week and he is of the opinion Superships like the AP Moller-Maersk E class or Coscos have reached critical mass. (Much like the oil supertankers of the 80s that all ended up being converted to floating storage). They were built to ship what was basically a glut of chinese mail order goods, and that trade has waned. Much of their trade now is carrying empty boxes back to where they are in short supply. Few ports have facilities to handle them and port operating costs are excessively high. Many ports that accept these ships do not have cranes with reach capable of removing all containers, so the ship is either loaded to accomodate these cranes, or moved during loading/unloading. Neither option is economical. When built they also boasted of being able to achieve the same high speeds as smaller vessels of type, however soon after their owners ordered captains to cut back the speed, as the faster ships were just spending longer at layby waiting for a suitable unloading/loading berth to become available.
    To reduce costs, one of the UK container ports that can accept these ships now does so without harbour pilots. It was an extra cost that the shipowners wanted to do without. They demanded no pilot, or else they would take their ships elsewhere.
    The Largest container ship currently visiting Cork is 3800 TEU. (All Refrigerated) This type of ship visits once a week with fruit from Central America. However smaller feeder ships visit more frequently, with a capacity of just over 1000TEU.
    To accept larger ships you also need an infastructure that can handle the volume of containers needed to feed the larger ships. We rely on all our TEU freight arriving by road. A road that is already well over capacity and bursting at the seams.
    Irish rail got rid of their TEU carrying rolling stock.
    Rotterdam sees as much containers arriving by barge using inland waterways as it does by road.
    Its called intermodality and Ireland does not do it.
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  10. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    Was talking to a Merchant Master earlier this week and he is of the opinion Superships like the AP Moller-Maersk E class or Coscos have reached critical mass. (Much like the oil supertankers of the 80s that all ended up being converted to floating storage). They were built to ship what was basically a glut of chinese mail order goods, and that trade has waned. Much of their trade now is carrying empty boxes back to where they are in short supply. Few ports have facilities to handle them and port operating costs are excessively high. Many ports that accept these ships do not have cranes with reach capable of removing all containers, so the ship is either loaded to accomodate these cranes, or moved during loading/unloading. Neither option is economical. When built they also boasted of being able to achieve the same high speeds as smaller vessels of type, however soon after their owners ordered captains to cut back the speed, as the faster ships were just spending longer at layby waiting for a suitable unloading/loading berth to become available.
    To reduce costs, one of the UK container ports that can accept these ships now does so without harbour pilots. It was an extra cost that the shipowners wanted to do without. They demanded no pilot, or else they would take their ships elsewhere.
    The Largest container ship currently visiting Cork is 3800 TEU. (All Refrigerated) This type of ship visits once a week with fruit from Central America. However smaller feeder ships visit more frequently, with a capacity of just over 1000TEU.
    To accept larger ships you also need an infastructure that can handle the volume of containers needed to feed the larger ships. We rely on all our TEU freight arriving by road. A road that is already well over capacity and bursting at the seams.
    Irish rail got rid of their TEU carrying rolling stock.
    Rotterdam sees as much containers arriving by barge using inland waterways as it does by road.
    Its called intermodality and Ireland does not do it.
    Most of world trade is carried by sea. It is the case from time to time that overcapacity of carriage availability is caused as ships get bigger and bigger. However the backbone of trade will be designed to stay within parameters that will allow it to Transit the Suez and Panama canals. Because a trinity of big players corner the market small inland countries, and small Island Nations like us, are at the costly end of the supply chain with our cargo passing through a field of handlers putting up costs and prices. We must get back to irish flagged ships like Bells and B+I and have sensible container ports for own requirements and also evaluate whether we can become a feeder base, handling larger TEU Vessels. Pilotage deals were always there for habitual ships like ferries and naval ships but some money MUST be paid or the port goes under.

  11. #57
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    I understand the ships getting a pilotage exemption do so, not because, as is usually the case, their captains are frequent port visitors, but because the company has faith in the ships auto pilot bringing it to berth safely.

    Make of that what you will.
    You may remember that Bell were groundbreakers in the trade at the time with some of their ships. In particular being the first to have hatchless holds aft of the accomodation, which was to the ships fore.
    I believe their demise came about due to costs of repairs to the port that was in their ownership.
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  12. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    I understand the ships getting a pilotage exemption do so, not because, as is usually the case, their captains are frequent port visitors, but because the company has faith in the ships auto pilot bringing it to berth safely.

    Make of that what you will.
    You may remember that Bell were groundbreakers in the trade at the time with some of their ships. In particular being the first to have hatchless holds aft of the accomodation, which was to the ships fore.
    I believe their demise came about due to costs of repairs to the port that was in their ownership.
    just as a matter of fact , an auto pilot only steers a course manually inserted by human hand.It replaces the quartermaster on passage. Generally, except on long river passages, steering in Port is done by a qualified helmsman. In Irish ports pilotage charges are compulsory.

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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The Ocean Containership similar to Maersk or to the Chinese COSCO will carry up to 20,000 TEU's ( 20ft ) or 10,000 2/TEU's ( 40ft). They would be handled by a container loading/unloading facility having a single berth with 6 container cranes to cover dispersal of container units on or off a 900ft vessel. The port facility needs storage for containers arriving by road/rail and waiting to be loaded also facilities for containers arriving by ship and awaiting clearance and shipping to another destination. If you are to hande two ships at a time then two berths would need 12 container cranes.
    Feeder services to other ports would also impact on a further provision of suitable berthing and handling facilities. Initial costs would be eye watering. But we should consider it.
    Absolutely but that isn’t the point I’m making

    Dublin Port handles approaching 700,000 TEUs annually and is our biggest LoLo port. A good portion of them will be short
    Sea to various European ports which is fine but we are talking about ocean vessels. The final destinations are all over the world.

    For example, if your container is going from Dublin to Norfolk VA, one of your options is ACL from Liverpool to Norfolk (it makes 3 other stops within Europe and 3 others within North America). ACL is not going to add/change one of those ports to Foynes/Cork unless there is demand for imports/exports on every sailing for at the very least a few hundred containers. That could be every week or 2. Their customers in the rest of Europe and the US may not be best pleased about the transit time being increased by probably a day on every sailing. But that is only 1 service and would be insufficient to warrant the development of a new deep water port. Your also going to have to have ocean vessels destined for the Far East, Africa etc etc and sufficient demand on every sailing to justify it.

    From an importer/exporter perspective, with much of it being done from the Greater Dublin area, depending on the INCOTERM I’m going to have to pay to Road or rail x TEUs per week to Foynes/Cork to create that demand.

    It is in the National State Interests to have a deep water ocean port absolutely but unless the demand is there for ocean lines to justify including it on their services it will be empty. It makes strategic sense but not commercial

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Absolutely but that isn’t the point I’m making

    Dublin Port handles approaching 700,000 TEUs annually and is our biggest LoLo port. A good portion of them will be short
    Sea to various European ports which is fine but we are talking about ocean vessels. The final destinations are all over the world.

    For example, if your container is going from Dublin to Norfolk VA, one of your options is ACL from Liverpool to Norfolk (it makes 3 other stops within Europe and 3 others within North America). ACL is not going to add/change one of those ports to Foynes/Cork unless there is demand for imports/exports on every sailing for at the very least a few hundred containers. That could be every week or 2. Their customers in the rest of Europe and the US may not be best pleased about the transit time being increased by probably a day on every sailing. But that is only 1 service and would be insufficient to warrant the development of a new deep water port. Your also going to have to have ocean vessels destined for the Far East, Africa etc etc and sufficient demand on every sailing to justify it.

    From an importer/exporter perspective, with much of it being done from the Greater Dublin area, depending on the INCOTERM I’m going to have to pay to Road or rail x TEUs per week to Foynes/Cork to create that demand.

    It is in the National State Interests to have a deep water ocean port absolutely but unless the demand is there for ocean lines to justify including it on their services it will be empty. It makes strategic sense but not commercial
    Was just indicating the cost of upping our game. The Shannon protagonists are proposing cargo/container handling that would ideally see Ireland providing a Felixstowe type facility to make us a European Terminal with feeder Services to Europe and export services Worldwide . I wouldn't put it there myself but wherever it goes it needs shelter, easy pilotage, deep water, good communication road and rail, deep pockets, and a professional planner. In general if you build a workable facility it will attract traffic. Ireland as a geographic first stop to Europe could be attractive as it costs to bring the big container ships to Europort. Norway which is more out of the way than us , same population, has 16,000,000 tonnes of shipping with 1400 vessels, while we have less than a 100. If we continually accept our tin mug status then we are goosed.

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    The elephant in the room here is that Norway is not an island. We are an island off europe without any land link to europe (and no hope of ever getting one).
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  18. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    The elephant in the room here is that Norway is not an island. We are an island off europe without any land link to europe (and no hope of ever getting one).
    Just pointing out that small countries can be significant like Norway in World Wide shipping, and Denmark with the biggest container Fleet in the world with assets of 61 billion. Their populations compare to us, and their growth came from seafarers with vision and pride. We are stuck with financiers loading the wobbly donkey. Our Atlantic position has to be significant in commerce and in European Defence. We have never grasped the fact that we will always be islanders and we MUST Trade to survive and Grow.

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    Would a port on the West of Ireland with the kind of volume to make it commercially feasible be viable with the kind of weather that regularly hits from the Atlantic?
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  21. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Would a port on the West of Ireland with the kind of volume to make it commercially feasible be viable with the kind of weather that regularly hits from the Atlantic?
    If the population distribution is looked at there is very little likelihood that the volume would be there to make it viable. And the resources needed would be better utilised on the South or East coast ports.

    As a side note I just took a screen shot of the current traffic situation in NW Europe. What can be seen is that we are a long way from the main shipping routes so any idea of developing a transhipment model like that of Singapore just will no go. And as for one of the large container ships like the OOCL Hong Kong are not going to divert out of their way to tranship through any of out ports.
    Attachment 8618

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  23. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    The elephant in the room here is that Norway is not an island. We are an island off europe without any land link to europe (and no hope of ever getting one).
    Not so much of a hindrance as you might expect. Malta Freeport handles over 3 million TEU's per anum. On a small island without road links.

    Regarding intermodal, the railway line to Foynes from Limerick, whilst inactive has been left in situ awaiting upgrade and reactivation. It will allow a rail link with Dublin Port among others.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...18-07-24/2199/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    Not so much of a hindrance as you might expect. Malta Freeport handles over 3 million TEU's per anum. On a small island without road links.

    Regarding intermodal, the railway line to Foynes from Limerick, whilst inactive has been left in situ awaiting upgrade and reactivation. It will allow a rail link with Dublin Port among others.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...18-07-24/2199/
    Our National maritime capacity and related strategic infrastructures together with the expertise to run Maritime Ireland are fragmented, dismantled in areas, and projects are subject to hand-out financing by politicians and varied depending on expediencies. I was almost fifty years at sea and saw the demise of Limerick Steamship Company, Cork Steampacket Company, B+I Line, Irish Shipping Ltd.,Bell RO-RO, Verholme Cork Shipbuilders, Dublin Dockyards, Dublin Drydocks, and few Ports have improved greatly except single use facilities like Moneypoint, one berth in Foynes, and minor berthage in Dublin to suit Ferry types. The advent of Cruise ships has brought life to Killybegs, and change of use port facilities in Dublin. We are messers operating with NO national awareness or sense of direction. Boards won't solve it as they are made up of the industry which they serve. The vision seems to get blurred and matters founder on delay and lack of certainty.

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  26. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Our National maritime capacity and related strategic infrastructures together with the expertise to run Maritime Ireland are fragmented, dismantled in areas, and projects are subject to hand-out financing by politicians and varied depending on expediencies. I was almost fifty years at sea and saw the demise of Limerick Steamship Company, Cork Steampacket Company, B+I Line, Irish Shipping Ltd.,Bell RO-RO, Verholme Cork Shipbuilders, Dublin Dockyards, Dublin Drydocks, and few Ports have improved greatly except single use facilities like Moneypoint, one berth in Foynes, and minor berthage in Dublin to suit Ferry types. The advent of Cruise ships has brought life to Killybegs, and change of use port facilities in Dublin. We are messers operating with NO national awareness or sense of direction. Boards won't solve it as they are made up of the industry which they serve. The vision seems to get blurred and matters founder on delay and lack of certainty.
    Just like every other area of Government

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  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Our National maritime capacity and related strategic infrastructures together with the expertise to run Maritime Ireland are fragmented, dismantled in areas, and projects are subject to hand-out financing by politicians and varied depending on expediencies. I was almost fifty years at sea and saw the demise of Limerick Steamship Company, Cork Steampacket Company, B+I Line, Irish Shipping Ltd.,Bell RO-RO, Verholme Cork Shipbuilders, Dublin Dockyards, Dublin Drydocks, and few Ports have improved greatly except single use facilities like Moneypoint, one berth in Foynes, and minor berthage in Dublin to suit Ferry types. The advent of Cruise ships has brought life to Killybegs, and change of use port facilities in Dublin. We are messers operating with NO national awareness or sense of direction. Boards won't solve it as they are made up of the industry which they serve. The vision seems to get blurred and matters founder on delay and lack of certainty.
    Well said.
    There is a trend in the last 30 years, maybe longer to close operating ports and convert their quaysides to waterside apartment blocks, devoid of usable berthage. I can remember when the Guinness ships and usually one of the ILS vessels could be seen tied up downriver from the Custom House, towards the Gasometer. During the Boat show at the Point Depot, visiting merchant ships would jam the working quays outside on the North Wall. Now the best you can hope for is a solitary naval visitor on John Rogersons Quay. The quays have been gentrified, at the expense of working ships. The same is happening in Grand Canal Dock, once a working dockside, now trying to eradicate anything resembling a working watercraft from its environs. Former dockside warehousing and silos are let go derelict, then demolished, without any relocation of such warehousing.
    Similarily, in Cork, the Tivoli docks area is in the process of being shut down. Reclaimed from the sea in the 60s, by the 70s it had a Container terminal, a RORO ferry berth, a bulk loading jetty and seperate jetties for Oil products and LPG, with the specialised storage tanks these products require. The Oil jetty was shut down about 20 years ago. The storage tanks removed 10 years ago. The Bulk loading terminal closed down 5 years ago, and its cargo handling equipment was sold to the highest bidder. The ferry terminal moved downstream in the 80s, but the ramp remains. With the expansion of Ringaskiddy, it is expected that the remaining Container and LPG terminal will be closed by 2020. There does not seem to be any plans for where the LPG terminal will move to though. Presumably back to Whitegate (Near fort Davis) where the current Calor depot is, adding to the Heavy traffic n the unsuitable minor road that links whitegate Oil refinery to the rest of the State.
    Look around the coastline. So many former once busy cargo quays out of use, allowed fall into disrepair before being converted into nice expensive waterside apartments, offices and restaurants. Elsewhere in Mainland Europe, and even the UK, similar sized quaysides are fully operational, serving nearby industries such as Pharma or even Construction. Many of these quays are a long way upstream from the sea. In ireland there is a mentality that an upstream harbour is there only for pleasure boating, and serves no other commercial purpose.
    In the UK I have been on ships that bring cargo to places like Howdendyke and Goole, near Leeds, and Gunness near S****horpe, both off the Humber. Both about 50 miles from the sea. Numerous harbours off The Wash such as Boston and Sutton Bridge, All capable of handling large cargo ships of all types, in spite of the silting that these rivers are subject to. Most often seen are the types that also operate on the European waterways, designed to fit easily under the many bridges of the Rhine.

    But we don't need ports in ireland it seems, because sure nothing we need comes by sea....
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  30. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    Well said.

    Look around the coastline. So many former once busy cargo quays out of use, allowed fall into disrepair before being converted into nice expensive waterside apartments, offices and restaurants. Elsewhere in Mainland Europe, and even the UK, similar sized quaysides are fully operational, serving nearby industries such as Pharma or even Construction. Many of these quays are a long way upstream from the sea. In ireland there is a mentality that an upstream harbour is there only for pleasure boating, and serves no other commercial purpose.
    In the UK I have been on ships that bring cargo to places like Howdendyke and Goole, near Leeds, and Gunness near S****horpe, both off the Humber. Both about 50 miles from the sea. Numerous harbours off The Wash such as Boston and Sutton Bridge, All capable of handling large cargo ships of all types, in spite of the silting that these rivers are subject to. Most often seen are the types that also operate on the European waterways, designed to fit easily under the many bridges of the Rhine.

    But we don't need ports in ireland it seems, because sure nothing we need comes by sea....
    Well said also. I was in Boston once with Dundalk Shipping ( nice crowd to work for-ex ISL connection). The last Maritime aware Statespeople we had were Lemass and Whitaker . Galway Docks has sought for over a century to expand to non-locked facilities. People forget that the publically funded GALWAY LINE ran a steam mail and passenger service to the United States in the 1800's. At one stage they held the Blue Riband for a fast crossing. A combination of no viable port and losing the Mail Contract saw the company taken over by White Star and it's successor's. The way forward is to hold discussion/planning meetings with the big players, Maersk, CMA etc. and get their reaction and needs on board. My theory is if you have a port nearer to your routes with feeder facilities it certainly may get used and could avoid the landbridge through the UK.

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    From neutrality to the merchant marine, Lemass was they only one who was willing to do anything.

    I remember someone saying "we are an island nation who stand on the beach and look inward" and it is very true. The state cannot make everything happen but there are many areas in which it can make a difference. I cannot remember every in the xx years I was in school every been taught anything related to our marine history or economic dependency. Never did I hear of the many great Irish naval commanders, of the "fathers of navies", of the role Irish Shipping Ltd played in keeping our island alive. The only mention of anything marine was of the Famine Death Ships. Many will never know that the mighty Royal Navy of Nelson was manned by a large number of Irishmen. All we get to see are now glossy brochures of fancy waterside apartments and the like. Although not all of this development is bad especially if the newer mode of marine transport is embraced.

    We seem to have little fate in many of our leaders and managers yet if we look at the airline industry an Irish company carries the most passengers in the EU, an Irishman heads up the group that runs BA, IB and AL. And ICG which emerged from what remained of ISL has gone from strength to strength. But it needs more support, why did ICG feel the need to re-flag its ships? (rhetorical question)

    We as a state founded the National Maritime College of Ireland, partly to train people for a maritime life but at the same time had a policy which drove the largest maritime employer to re-flag!!! With ISL they warning signs where there long before they went out of business, and 1984 was not a time when the state had a lot of spare cash but a chance was missed. The re-shaping of the Irish shipping industry should have taken place back then; a merging of ICG, B&I, Bell should have happened then, even if it was only state supported rather than state owned. Without a strong state support the market will drive business to take short term views rather than a long term strategic view.

    There are two developments the state needs to get right at this time in our history. The first is the big Brexit issue, we will need to maintain a link to the UK market which will not totally disappear and we need to keep a cost effective link to the rest of the EU. For the former this will mean more customs checks and bonded storage at the eastern ports. As for the EU link there the options are more long term but the strategy should be as a minimum to allow freight to travel at same cost as today using the land bridge via the UK. These should be seen as opportunities rather than problems.

    The next development is one where we are already behind the curve and need to accelerate and that is the off-shore renewable energy market. As a same island nation we have a great advantage when it come to wind, wave and tidal power. In fact if the government fails to get to give back the tax from Apple that amount could in theory be enough to install sufficient offshore wind to supply the state in terms of electrical demand! But policy and rules to enable this need to be strengthened. This will need new port facilities not only for the construction but also the maintenance and renewal of any off-shore facilities.

    We need a new Lemass, a leader with vision and drive.

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  34. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    From neutrality to the merchant marine, Lemass was they only one who was willing to do anything.

    I remember someone saying "we are an island nation who stand on the beach and look inward" and it is very true. The state cannot make everything happen but there are many areas in which it can make a difference. I cannot remember every in the xx years I was in school every been taught anything related to our marine history or economic dependency. Never did I hear of the many great Irish naval commanders, of the "fathers of navies", of the role Irish Shipping Ltd played in keeping our island alive. The only mention of anything marine was of the Famine Death Ships. Many will never know that the mighty Royal Navy of Nelson was manned by a large number of Irishmen. All we get to see are now glossy brochures of fancy waterside apartments and the like. Although not all of this development is bad especially if the newer mode of marine transport is embraced.

    We seem to have little fate in many of our leaders and managers yet if we look at the airline industry an Irish company carries the most passengers in the EU, an Irishman heads up the group that runs BA, IB and AL. And ICG which emerged from what remained of ISL has gone from strength to strength. But it needs more support, why did ICG feel the need to re-flag its ships? (rhetorical question)

    We as a state founded the National Maritime College of Ireland, partly to train people for a maritime life but at the same time had a policy which drove the largest maritime employer to re-flag!!! With ISL they warning signs where there long before they went out of business, and 1984 was not a time when the state had a lot of spare cash but a chance was missed. The re-shaping of the Irish shipping industry should have taken place back then; a merging of ICG, B&I, Bell should have happened then, even if it was only state supported rather than state owned. Without a strong state support the market will drive business to take short term views rather than a long term strategic view.

    There are two developments the state needs to get right at this time in our history. The first is the big Brexit issue, we will need to maintain a link to the UK market which will not totally disappear and we need to keep a cost effective link to the rest of the EU. For the former this will mean more customs checks and bonded storage at the eastern ports. As for the EU link there the options are more long term but the strategy should be as a minimum to allow freight to travel at same cost as today using the land bridge via the UK. These should be seen as opportunities rather than problems.

    The next development is one where we are already behind the curve and need to accelerate and that is the off-shore renewable energy market. As a same island nation we have a great advantage when it come to wind, wave and tidal power. In fact if the government fails to get to give back the tax from Apple that amount could in theory be enough to install sufficient offshore wind to supply the state in terms of electrical demand! But policy and rules to enable this need to be strengthened. This will need new port facilities not only for the construction but also the maintenance and renewal of any off-shore facilities.

    We need a new Lemass, a leader with vision and drive.
    Well said , quite monumental in breadth. There are amazing Irish born people. I was listening to a program extolling an Irish immigrant, suitably qualified, who went to the UK and joined Rolls Royce. In his time there he registered more than 60 patents and was largely responsible for supersonic flight and Vulcan type propulsion. He is a McMurty from Clontarf, Dublin. The UK will lose out if they implement Brexit preemptively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    Well said.
    There is a trend in the last 30 years, maybe longer to close operating ports and convert their quaysides to waterside apartment blocks, devoid of usable berthage. I can remember when the Guinness ships and usually one of the ILS vessels could be seen tied up downriver from the Custom House, towards the Gasometer. During the Boat show at the Point Depot, visiting merchant ships would jam the working quays outside on the North Wall. Now the best you can hope for is a solitary naval visitor on John Rogersons Quay. The quays have been gentrified, at the expense of working ships. The same is happening in Grand Canal Dock, once a working dockside, now trying to eradicate anything resembling a working watercraft from its environs. Former dockside warehousing and silos are let go derelict, then demolished, without any relocation of such warehousing.
    Similarily, in Cork, the Tivoli docks area is in the process of being shut down. Reclaimed from the sea in the 60s, by the 70s it had a Container terminal, a RORO ferry berth, a bulk loading jetty and seperate jetties for Oil products and LPG, with the specialised storage tanks these products require. The Oil jetty was shut down about 20 years ago. The storage tanks removed 10 years ago. The Bulk loading terminal closed down 5 years ago, and its cargo handling equipment was sold to the highest bidder. The ferry terminal moved downstream in the 80s, but the ramp remains. With the expansion of Ringaskiddy, it is expected that the remaining Container and LPG terminal will be closed by 2020. There does not seem to be any plans for where the LPG terminal will move to though. Presumably back to Whitegate (Near fort Davis) where the current Calor depot is, adding to the Heavy traffic n the unsuitable minor road that links whitegate Oil refinery to the rest of the State.
    Look around the coastline. So many former once busy cargo quays out of use, allowed fall into disrepair before being converted into nice expensive waterside apartments, offices and restaurants. Elsewhere in Mainland Europe, and even the UK, similar sized quaysides are fully operational, serving nearby industries such as Pharma or even Construction. Many of these quays are a long way upstream from the sea. In ireland there is a mentality that an upstream harbour is there only for pleasure boating, and serves no other commercial purpose.
    In the UK I have been on ships that bring cargo to places like Howdendyke and Goole, near Leeds, and Gunness near S****horpe, both off the Humber. Both about 50 miles from the sea. Numerous harbours off The Wash such as Boston and Sutton Bridge, All capable of handling large cargo ships of all types, in spite of the silting that these rivers are subject to. Most often seen are the types that also operate on the European waterways, designed to fit easily under the many bridges of the Rhine.

    But we don't need ports in ireland it seems, because sure nothing we need comes by sea....
    H&W Shipyard may or may not be on the market...theres conflicting news reports.

    If it is the developers will be circling like sharks.

    Still at least we have a devolved regional assembly to look out for the best interests of those who work there, and secure this important maritime / industrial infrastructure for future generations....oh wait...

    The Port of Coleraine...small tidal port on the River Bann... looks increasingly likely to fall to the developers at last too.

    I remember in the 80s when there could have been 4-6 coasters in there at any one time...Hawthorn, Blackthorn, Silverthorn are the ones I remember...coal boats.

    Then a big chunk got sold off to stick a Dunnes on in the early 90s.

    Today they export scrap metal and aggregates...but probably only 4-6 ships a month.

    More and more pontoons for yachts and yacht storage ashore appearing...soon to be the fourth marina along that stretch of water I fear.

    Old report but someone I know who lives close by tells me its been rearing its head again recently... https://www.williemiller.com/colerai...our-vision.htm

    Council will want to raise cash...short sighted.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  38. #74
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    [QUOTE=spider;465146]H&W Shipyard may or may not be on the market...theres conflicting news reports.

    If it is the developers will be circling like sharks.

    Still at least we have a devolved regional assembly to look out for the best interests of those who work there, and secure this important maritime / industrial infrastructure for future generations....oh wait...

    Irish Ferries, in the 2000's have had all their ships drydocked on scheduled repair programs at H&W. We have 9 ships in the Service, and if mutually compatible and benficial to the continuation of the Drydocks, why not give it a try with a couple of ships? Goodwill and state indemnities will solve most things, work being work. The flags could be left in the locker?

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    I can just imagine the reaction of the DUP at the thought of Irish Naval ships being dry docked in Belfast . No, No, and No. Even though it helps the yard economically . They would see it as a Trojan Horse attempt to a United Ireland or a pending invasion .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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