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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Well here's the thing........ R5 states that refer to DFR S3 for rates of RDF pay rates (which as far as I know haven't been amended to take account of the 10%) and to paraphrase R5 we are supposed to get exactly the same as the PDF (ie no 10% reduction).
    Is there a contradiction here or is S3 just the DFR which details PDF pay and thus all DF pay? I'm assuming that R5 simply refers to S3 for the DF pay rates?

    I would find it strange that the pay rates were cut by 10% without some kind of amendment to DFR (R5 you'd imagine). This looks to me like:

    - There was never a difference in pay rates before. RDF just got same pay at first point on scale and no MSA. Simple.
    - Pay rates cut by 10% without change to DFR. Implimented by memo, email, God knows?
    - The DF has never needed a process to monitor and update a seperate RDF pay scale so guess what it never happened and no thought was given to haddington road agreements etc.
    - The common excuse for the difference is that RDFRA was 'outside the room' during discussion on Landsdowne Road, Haddington Road agreements, etc. Should it have have mattered? The RDF is part of the DF. Rates should have been linked to R5 which should have been updated with the 10% reduction.
    - This possibly hasn't been looked at before as everyone involved knows its a bit of clustfu*k. Easier to ignore.
    - R5 will be updated here fixing the pay issue going forward. The 10% reduction wasn't in there in the first place so fair chance we will see pay parity back to point one on the scale...
    - No backpay. Far too messy. There isn't the money or appetite there to resolve.

    My two cents...
    Last edited by Auldsod; 23 June 2019, 22:53.

    Comment


    • DFR R5 says we get the same point on the scale as PDF which is in S3. In S3, open to correction, but it supports what R5 says (ie no 10% reduction).

      Now the 10% could be in a Finance Act (not sure how the pay things are implemented. somewhere, being primary legislation that would over rule the DFR but that would probably require a legal challenge as it is not where it is supposed to be.

      The long and the short of it is that the DFRs are law. No email, letter etc can change the law, and the pay rates are supposed to be set down in law. We know the 10% was implemented and new RDF line pay rates were implemented.

      All the DoD have to do is add a sentence to R5 and probably put a new table in S3 and put it in front of the Minister.

      R5 is currently not fit for purpose and hasn’t been since 2013. There are multiple references (for example) of things needing to approved by OC Bde RDF. That appointment ceased to exist in 2012. All they have to do is a find and replace and put it in front of the Minister to sign.

      Funny how they amended it when necessary for gratuity (I think it was 2 weeks prior to it having to be paid).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
        Forgive my ignorance but is R5 a document that can be amended by the DoD or does it require legislation?
        Generally a DFR must be signed off by the Minister and, therefore, carries legal weight. The accompanying AI (Admin Instruction) lacks the legal force but is supposed to be a lot more fluid, amendable and detailed.

        For example, DFR R5 would say the RDF has to be paid according to set down procedures, AI R5 would lay out those procedures. Not paying the RDF would require ministerial approval, changing the procedure of how they are paid would be a DoD decision and relatively easy to change.

        Comment


        • DFRs = Secondary legislation per the 1954 act. They do not need to be published in IRIS or the Oireachtas library save in very restricted circumstances.

          DFR R5 sets out the pay applicable to the RDF. It generally pays you with respect to PDF rates which are listed in S3. As far as I can gather neither S3 nor R5 have been updated for the 10% paycut.

          A recent ministerial question said this was because of FEMPI/LRA/HRA etc , but , tellingly, RDF are not subject to FEMPI it clearly mentions PDF only .

          Further, FEMPI overrode S3 for PDF but not for RDF so its a rats nest right now but I still think there's no regulation for the 10% paycut which would have to be in R5 ( and you can't find the 10% paycut for RDF in FEMPI either, go on, have a look, I dare you lol )
          Last edited by trellheim; 27 June 2019, 13:01.
          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

          Comment


          • Like the recruitment and promotion embargo across the public service that stated in black and white “Permanent Defence Force” which DoD interpreted as PDF and RDF

            Comment


            • Reserve pay has made a national newspaper today anyway. Still not going to give the issue much traction but welcome exposure.

              Reserves in the Defence Forces have to travel to training and exercises at their own expense and get paid, on average, 19% less than their full-time counterparts for doing the same work.

              Comment


              • yes fair play.

                My own thoughts : even in the worst days of the state when we were utterly broke in 1987 they still didnt cut the grat
                "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                Comment




                • Some fantastic news announced today. Pay scales to be moved back in line with the PDF (less 10%). A lot done and more to do but good work from the RDFRA.

                  Comment


                  • Go find the change to the law that cut it in the first place. ( RDF Pay, the change to PDF pay is easy to find in FEMPI, LRA, HRA ) . Hint : Start with R5.
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                      Go find the change to the law that cut it in the first place. ( RDF Pay, the change to PDF pay is easy to find in FEMPI, LRA, HRA ) . Hint : Start with R5.
                      IE you won’t find it cause it does exist ?!

                      Comment


                      • No I cant find it either. R5 links to S3, neither having been updated, and HRA/Fempi excludes the RDF.
                        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                        Comment


                        • The 10% pay cut for the RDF is provided for in Para 8 of Appendix 2 of the Haddington Road Agreement. It says that the cut would take place after consultation with RDFRA. No such consultation took place and the cut was implemented anyway.



                          Since 2016 or so the PDF have been receiving small pay increases periodically. Due to an administrative error none of these increases were passed on to the RDF as is required by law as PDF and RDF pay are linked. This meant that we went from the situation imposed by the HRA where RDF pay = PDF pay minus 10 % to Minus 11%, 12% etc until we recently finished up with a gap of 19% between a weeks pay for an RDF member and the lowest increment of the pay scale for the equivalent PDF rank.

                          The department has conceded that this situation was in breach of DFRs and agreed to increase RDF pay back to 90% of the PDF rate. RDFRA must now seek full pay restoration by undoing the HRA cut itself.

                          Comment


                          • Anyone know, how far back can RDFRA legally fight for back pay. ie 2,3,4,5,6+.

                            Comment


                            • Is the 10% RDF pay cut in the HRA legislation anywhere??

                              Is it in S3 ?

                              It definitely isn’t in R5, which required an amendment to make it legal

                              Comment


                              • Just told a few PDF friends that our pay restoration was approved to bring it back in line with them on the 1st pay point. They have gone nuts ????, not about themselves (CS and above) but the effective it might have on the pte/cpl ranks. They know there is no limit on mandays (subject to your unit) and feel it might somd to leave and go on the 2nd line Reserve (us).

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