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  • #31
    I bet if you asked anyone 20 years ago what the quality of new officers, cadets, NCO, Pte’s or recruits they would say the same thing. Then go back another 20 years, same answer. These new people are just not as good....

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    • #32
      Lets be honest, the officer ranks in the Irish Defence forces contain a lot of chocolate fireguards. The ones who couldn't get a job in civvy st even if they tried. Eternally engaged in the quest to find th eeasy life, no matter what that means to the troops under them, or the organisation as a whole. The last ones standing when promotions were given out. Many made it to general rank. I can think of three right away.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by jack08 View Post
        I bet if you asked anyone 20 years ago what the quality of new officers, cadets, NCO, Pte’s or recruits they would say the same thing. Then go back another 20 years, same answer. These new people are just not as good....
        At a very basic level, the ability to put students, cadets or otherwise through robust training has diminished incredibly.

        Thats before you consider the drastic change in attitude of those joining the DF.

        Training today is less demanding, less robust, and far more prone to letting unsuitable people slip through the net than it was 10/15/20 years ago.

        The trend overall is consistently trending downwards. Certainly in initial training.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
          Lets be honest, the officer ranks in the Irish Defence forces contain a lot of chocolate fireguards. The ones who couldn't get a job in civvy st even if they tried. Eternally engaged in the quest to find th eeasy life, no matter what that means to the troops under them, or the organisation as a whole. The last ones standing when promotions were given out. Many made it to general rank. I can think of three right away.
          Let's be very honest. In addition to officers there are plenty of NCOs who are eternally engaged in maintaining the easy life to the detriment of those under them. There are some incredibly incompetent SNCOs who have been allowed progress by virtue of an appraisal system which rewards getting out of bed and dressing yourself with a "VERY GOOD".

          The problem is widespread and across all ranks.

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          • #35
            ...and you also have the ability to challenge any negative finding against you and win out; didnt get promoted? throw a shoe and you will get the stripe/pip/extra money/new badge. I always remember the old joke about fellas getting a pension for "21 years of undetected crime" and I can think of dozens of people that I encountered who fitted that bill exactly. Chuck, as an aside, I heard your exact complaint about newbies from one of our airline's Captains. the candiates are passing and getting the job but they are not what they used to be. Specifically, he didnt get the vibe off some of them that they had leadership potential and an airline needs good leaders at all levels.

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            • #36
              I read lately that the first female F16 demo pilot, in the USAF, was stood down from her role, not long after taking up the slot, and the phrase used was "loss of confidence". Now, from what I gather, this is the modern equivalent of the old Section 168, which was a catch-all means of charging you with something. She's still flying but dirtied her bib and lost the prime slot...Further reading tells me that the US military takes crime and punishment very seriously, to a scale unknown in the DF and getting sacked or jailed is quite common. I also found a list of recent UK arrests and punishments in the UK Forces and a serious amount of people got sacked, jailed, cashiered,etc, especially for fraud, theft, assault, AWOL, etc, etc and a common and feared punishment was time in Colchester Military Detention centre. No cushy "fined a tenner...march him out!". I guess the DF has gone too soft on crime...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                I read lately that the first female F16 demo pilot, in the USAF, was stood down from her role, not long after taking up the slot, and the phrase used was "loss of confidence". Now, from what I gather, this is the modern equivalent of the old Section 168, which was a catch-all means of charging you with something. She's still flying but dirtied her bib and lost the prime slot...Further reading tells me that the US military takes crime and punishment very seriously, to a scale unknown in the DF and getting sacked or jailed is quite common. I also found a list of recent UK arrests and punishments in the UK Forces and a serious amount of people got sacked, jailed, cashiered,etc, especially for fraud, theft, assault, AWOL, etc, etc and a common and feared punishment was time in Colchester Military Detention centre. No cushy "fined a tenner...march him out!". I guess the DF has gone too soft on crime...
                One only has to look at some of the determinations that have been handed down by Courts Martial to see that the system is soft.

                People committed of serious civilian offences such as assault, possession etc should be turfed out without any comeback on conviction.

                Trying to get rid of a bad egg takes years.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  I read lately that the first female F16 demo pilot, in the USAF, was stood down from her role, not long after taking up the slot, and the phrase used was "loss of confidence". Now, from what I gather, this is the modern equivalent of the old Section 168, which was a catch-all means of charging you with something. She's still flying but dirtied her bib and lost the prime slot...Further reading tells me that the US military takes crime and punishment very seriously, to a scale unknown in the DF and getting sacked or jailed is quite common. I also found a list of recent UK arrests and punishments in the UK Forces and a serious amount of people got sacked, jailed, cashiered,etc, especially for fraud, theft, assault, AWOL, etc, etc and a common and feared punishment was time in Colchester Military Detention centre. No cushy "fined a tenner...march him out!". I guess the DF has gone too soft on crime...
                  Adultery whilst on operations is a sackable offence in the US Forces I believe.

                  AWOL in the UK military you'll usually get day for day in the Military Corrective Training Centre (up to a certain level) unless there are mitigating circumstances. There was recently a R IRISH soldier in there who got arrested after going AWOL after his R&R from a HERRICK tour...about ten years ago. He was serving about two years.

                  The MCTC system streams you into one of two companies; one which focuses on military training and preparing you to pick up your career again, the other prepares you for civilian life. Certain offences mean you'll only ever end up being streamed as a 'leaver'...eg drugs, illegal porn etc. I believe they can accept people who have been sentenced up to three years. Officers have to go to a civilian prison. I knew a Sapper who broke another soldiers jaw...got something like six months...and soldiered on. Your pay and pension gets stopped whilst you are inside too...so theres a big financial hit.


                  Its dying a death though; theres rarely more than 40-50 inmates in a place built and staffed to house three times that number.
                  'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                  • #39
                    It still seems to put the fear of God in serving soldiers. "Colly" doesn't appear to be taken lightly.....as for today's youngsters, I was talking today with one of my colleagues about it and we both, without prompting, named the same guy from our current apprentice intake, who's a bit of a slow starter. Bright guy, but needs a push to get him going. Conversely, we have another guy, who's a bit like Richard Hammond; a bit mouthy, a bit smug, a bit over confident for a guy with less time in service than my hi-viz vest, so we have two guys nudging either end of the scale and not yet wise enough to centre the needle. Not bad lads but needing adjustment.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chuck
                      That doesn't surprise me at all. The 18-23 year olds entering the real world now have been groomed and molly coddled and told that they are gods gift to society and that society should respond as such.

                      Unfortunately for a lot of young adults entering the workplace now, they are only receiving criticism for the first time and it is often not taken very well. A lot is due to the left/liberal, entitlement culture that has gripped Ireland in the last 5-8 years.

                      I suspect that the airlines will adjust their personality tests to try and weed out the less desirable millennials. Perhaps the DF might follow suit. Knowing how it adjusts to cultural trends, that'll probably happen in 20 years.
                      Yep. the teenagers coming through now have all being given a medal for taken part in a sports day, even the losers, No one now knows that you have to establish yourself in the pecking order with effort. The lefty agenda is slowly destroying the wests success due to hard work and ability.

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                      • #41
                        Largest class to date got their swords today.


                        Last edited by na grohmiti; 20 February 2020, 20:16.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                        • #42
                          No Minister present

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            At least the person who really runs the Defence Forces Was there. Maurice Quinn.
                            The CoS was also present.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • #44
                              That is a massive slap in the face from the Government . There was never going to be a Taoiseach elected today and for this event he would have requested and been granted a pair
                              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                              • #45
                                Would have being nice if it was held in the St Patricks hall Dublin Castle

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