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  1. #26
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  3. #27
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    The have frequently teamed Defence with another full ministry. Remember Fish & Ships (Defence and the Marine). There is no reason why they could not do the same again and thus have Defence properly represented at the cabinet table.

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  5. #28
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Just going to leave this here (Garda pay)
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thej...v2016/%3famp=1

  6. #29
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    We could have a change of Minister, a full time Minister, a change of Taoiseach, a change of Government, a change of parties in Government...... the constant is the Department (that advise the Minister of the day)

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  8. #30
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Roughly how much has DoD returned from the past few years budgets??
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  9. #31
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    We could have a change of Minister, a full time Minister, a change of Taoiseach, a change of Government, a change of parties in Government...... the constant is the Department (that advise the Minister of the day)
    You're saying Military Coup?

    I, for one, welcome our new Junta overlords!

  10. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    Roughly how much has DoD returned from the past few years budgets??
    €90m over 5 years is one figure mentioned.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  12. #33
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    You're saying Military Coup?

    I, for one, welcome our new Junta overlords!
    No I’m saying that no matter what happens at the ballot box or at the Cabinet table - the DoD civil servants remain and that is the bigger issue

  13. #34
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    No I’m saying that no matter what happens at the ballot box or at the Cabinet table - the DoD civil servants remain and that is the bigger issue
    I had this debate with a disgruntled friend prior to the European/Local elections. Ministers come and go, but the civil service is forever. If you want to affect changes in this country, you do it through the civil service and from what I have seen and heard (in some departments at least) more effort is spent finding ways to avoid work than doing it.

    The DoD should be enabling the DF to function and work instead of throwing up road blocks at every opportunity. I think we will see slow change in the civil service in the coming years as the gold plated contracts of the past retire out over time. The jobs for life attitude needs to go, and fast. If people don't perform they should be looking for another job as they would be in the private sector.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  15. #35
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    Ministers are just passing trough , on their way to bigger and better things for themselves in their own universe and the Civil Servants or doing their own thing in their parallel universe .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  17. #36
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    I had this debate with a disgruntled friend prior to the European/Local elections. Ministers come and go, but the civil service is forever. If you want to affect changes in this country, you do it through the civil service and from what I have seen and heard (in some departments at least) more effort is spent finding ways to avoid work than doing it.

    The DoD should be enabling the DF to function and work instead of throwing up road blocks at every opportunity. I think we will see slow change in the civil service in the coming years as the gold plated contracts of the past retire out over time. The jobs for life attitude needs to go, and fast. If people don't perform they should be looking for another job as they would be in the private sector.
    I 100% agree with you on all the above but just don't see change in the way the civil service operates anytime soon. There is a job for live attitude and a complete resistance to performance appraisal. Their unions are strong, the civil service is significant portion of the electorate and the fact is that other departments have more capable and high speed employees. I know little about the DoD aside from what I've heard on here but I'm sure it's a comfortable little backwater outside Finance, Foreign Affairs, etc for some.

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  19. #37
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    €90m over 5 years is one figure mentioned.
    That could have been a huge improvement in any range of equipment, living conditions, range facilities, pay, take your pick.
    Disgraceful that gear and facilities been run into the ground continues, affecting operational capabilities, not to mention morale, etc while the money is continuously returned. Absolutely shocking behaviour to be allowed, tolerated or encouraged within DoD.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  21. #38
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    RACO were in fron of the Oireachtas committee yesterday. Should be an interesting read
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  22. #39
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    Quite frankly, the Govt would reduce the DF to the status of a third rate militia if they thought they could get away with it. They appear to want a mish-mash of a Coast Guard / a Border Guard (see brexit) / a Gendarmerie (riot control) and a few drops of RNLI / Civil Defence, allied to a force just big enough to generate and sustain a UN battalion (only on the proviso that the UN pays for it). They appear to want the building, land and housing stock of the DF to quietly disintegrate, so that they can flog it off for a buck and to spend as little as humanly possible to fund new buildings. In line with current practise in other countries, as much of the DF function will be civilianised, as is humanly possible. The DoD will take the blame as the DF shrinks but they are but functionaries and it's really Finance driving all of this. Senior people in DoF and DoD will get their bonuses enhanced, as the DF withers on the vine, on the backs of being seen to return funds to Finance. The Taoiseach couldnt care less about the DF if he tried and about the only way to improve the state of the DF is for the EU to demand an increase in defence spending, which would force his hand.

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  24. #40
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Sounds like a fair assessment - however, it is reflecting the view of the average Joe and Biddy Voter....
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  25. #41
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    RACO were in fron of the Oireachtas committee yesterday. Should be an interesting read
    Excellent presentation
    https://media.heanet.ie/page/4313ae3...daa500d32c2e21

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  27. #42
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Skip to 27 min. One of my old Coy 2ICs in there.

    RACO Opening Statement https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireac...fficers_en.pdf
    Last edited by trellheim; 31st May 2019 at 10:45.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  29. #43
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    So now it's come out that a significant number of DF personnel didn't get their postal votes?

  30. #44
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    Isn't that called voter supression? Ironic, given the WPDF has been campaigning for people not to Vote FG in the recent elections.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  31. #45
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It photos I’ve seen are alledged in a Dublin Bks and haven’t been given to a voter... wouldn’t that mean it is someone who is in the DF that had custody of them?

    What if the person was on leave, overseas, etc etc

  32. #46
    Corporal irishrgr's Avatar
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    Watched the hearing, RAOC did a good job, they came across as an organization who cares about the DF (and by default their members) and how it is being allowed to wither on the vine. I was pleased to see they spoke just as much about the lot of the enlisted and NCO's, not just exclusively officers. Did a good job of "staying in their lane", not commenting on individuals, operational matters or matters for the govt. I'd like to see the DoD civil servants speak at a hearing like that, we'd heard from the uniformed leaders, the associations, let's see what the bean counters have to say for themselves.

    Questions: One of the RACO team was in uniform, what is the stance of the DF and wearing the uniform while not officially representing the DF? I'm sure the officer was smart enough to not break a rule/policy, just wondering how that works in Ireland. Here we absolutely cannot wear the uniform unless we are representing the service. Servicemen & women can testify in uniform if they are requested, our senior leaders do it all the time, but not under the auspices of an association. Lots of us are involved in associations, but the rules are clear, any such activity must be in a personal capacity (i.e. off duty & on leave).

    Having said that, it was a good presentation, but I don't have much optimism, defense is just not an issue in Irish politics. As one of the panel said, look at how much the govt will spend on rural broadband when compared to the DF.

    A

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  34. #47
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    The Government/DOD's briefing note to TD's/Senators on their position:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...rces-1.3911301

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  36. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It photos I’ve seen are alledged in a Dublin Bks and haven’t been given to a voter... wouldn’t that mean it is someone who is in the DF that had custody of them?

    What if the person was on leave, overseas, etc etc
    They only made it to most locations the Monday or Tuesday of the election. It didnt give much time.

    Anyone that was not in receipt of a postal vote could still cast their vote in a polling station on the voting day.

    I am not sure how many did not make it to the overseas mission but EPMO do make a special effort

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  38. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishrgr View Post
    Watched the hearing, RAOC did a good job, they came across as an organization who cares about the DF (and by default their members) and how it is being allowed to wither on the vine. I was pleased to see they spoke just as much about the lot of the enlisted and NCO's, not just exclusively officers. Did a good job of "staying in their lane", not commenting on individuals, operational matters or matters for the govt. I'd like to see the DoD civil servants speak at a hearing like that, we'd heard from the uniformed leaders, the associations, let's see what the bean counters have to say for themselves.

    Questions: One of the RACO team was in uniform, what is the stance of the DF and wearing the uniform while not officially representing the DF? I'm sure the officer was smart enough to not break a rule/policy, just wondering how that works in Ireland. Here we absolutely cannot wear the uniform unless we are representing the service. Servicemen & women can testify in uniform if they are requested, our senior leaders do it all the time, but not under the auspices of an association. Lots of us are involved in associations, but the rules are clear, any such activity must be in a personal capacity (i.e. off duty & on leave).

    Having said that, it was a good presentation, but I don't have much optimism, defense is just not an issue in Irish politics. As one of the panel said, look at how much the govt will spend on rural broadband when compared to the DF.

    A
    The 2 in civis are seconded to the Representative Association as the Sec Gen and Deputy Sec Gen. The one in uniform is the President of the Representative Association. He is not on secondment. It is a role that he applied for and was voted into, in addition to his Legad duties
    Last edited by Fantasia; 1st June 2019 at 07:46.

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  40. #50
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    They only made it to most locations the Monday or Tuesday of the election. It didnt give much time.

    Anyone that was not in receipt of a postal vote could still cast their vote in a polling station on the voting day.

    I am not sure how many did not make it to the overseas mission but EPMO do make a special effort
    How does it work?

    Who delivers them to EPMO (and I assume COMO?)?
    I assume DoD aren’t involved?

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