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  1. #51
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    In fairness, traditional RACO would only really look after their own members interests (which is their job and what their members pay their subs for). Great to see them (the Association) taking active interest in enlisted ranks. Especially when PDFORRA are saying little publicly, hopefully the hard work behind the scenes gets the recognition and comes to fruition

    Edited in bold
    Last edited by DeV; 2nd June 2019 at 21:24.

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  3. #52
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    The Government/DOD's briefing note to TD's/Senators on their position:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...rces-1.3911301
    There is one thing for sure DoD have the status quo at heart, not the Viability of the defence of the State

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    How does it work?

    Who delivers them to EPMO (and I assume COMO?)?
    I assume DoD aren’t involved?
    A 2/Lt that couldnt get out of it, is sent to each Returns Officer in each constituency, collects the ballots, EPMO collates the lot and sends them to parent units for distribution.

    Very teduous job. Takes a lot of time and effort to break them down into units. EPMO draw people in but everyone still has to be entered into PMS to check who they are and what unit they belong to, to make sure they get the right postal vote. A lot of people with the same names etc. EPMO do the work for all ranks

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  6. #54
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    In fairness, traditional RACO would only really look after their own members interests (which is their job and what their members pay their subs for). Great to see them (the Association) taking active interest in enlisted ranks. Especially when PDFORRA are doing little.
    Agree on the first point Dev.We should all be fighting for the same cause but I would ask you to retract the second part of your comment as quite frankly you are not party to what goes on behind closed doors in PDFORRA.
    By making that comment you are merely trotting out the populist line spun by the likes of the former poster boy for the Army and his puppets the WPDF.

    Neither of which have a access to ANY of the negotiation mechanism's or legal recourses that PDFORRA has so therefore are completely ignored by the Minister,the Minister of State ,the DoD ,C+A etc etc.Quite simply they are NOT the recognised representatives of enlisted members of the DF.

    Please don't blindly parrot what bitter malcontents say but ask the people who who are doing the REAL work on the ground and getting dogs abuse for it what is REALLY going on.
    You might be surprised to to learn something. Facts not Fiction.
    https://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1641
    Last edited by apod; 1st June 2019 at 16:53.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  7. #55
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Sigh : PDFORRA need a SAN certificate on their website , ask whoever runs it to buy one for *.pdforra.ie not just www.pdforra.ie as if you post links like that most browsers dont like them

    As for the PSPC it was trolled openly to to check the reaction among the vox pop, it was tremendously negative so was pulled ( at least I think thats what happened )
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  9. #56
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Agree on the first point Dev.We should all be fighting for the same cause but I would ask you to retract the second part of your comment as quite frankly you are not party to what goes on behind closed doors in PDFORRA.
    By making that comment you are merely trotting out the populist line spun by the likes of the former poster boy for the Army and his puppets the WPDF.

    Neither of which have a access to ANY of the negotiation mechanism's or legal recourses that PDFORRA has so therefore are completely ignored by the Minister,the Minister of State ,the DoD ,C+A etc etc.Quite simply they are NOT the recognised representatives of enlisted members of the DF.

    Please don't blindly parrot what bitter malcontents say but ask the people who who are doing the REAL work on the ground and getting dogs abuse for it what is REALLY going on.
    You might be surprised to to learn something. Facts not Fiction.
    https://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1641
    Believe me I completely disagree with much (probably >80%) of what said individual and WPDF say

    PDFORRA??

    Which representative association put more effort in (considering the size of the membership).

    PDFORRA:
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ds/PDFORRA.pdf (16 page phase 1 stakeholder submission)


    RACO / ARCO
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...loads/RACO.pdf (2 page initial consultation)
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ACO-part-1.pdf (87 page phase 1 stakeholder submission part 1)
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ACO-part-2.pdf (88 page phase 1 stakeholder submission part 2)
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ACO-part-3.pdf (71 page phase 1 stakeholder submission part 2)
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...O-pensions.pdf (13 page ARCO pension submission)
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...pensions-1.pdf (92 page pension submission part 1)
    https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...pensions-2.pdf (92 page pension submission part 2)


    Note:
    zero submission from PDFORRA (or IUNVA or ONE on other ranks pensions)
    Zero submission from PDFORRA on initial consultation

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  11. #57
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Absolutely agree that they have a difficult hand to play

  12. #58
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    RACO and PDFORRA do have access to C&A, RDFRA do not due to departmental policy Whereas we (RDF) started a very long way back with both the PDF and The Department, the PDF/RDF relationship has changed tremendously as PDF OCs and their staff get judged on their RDF sub-units as well and its a slim difference in most 451s and 667s so those that do the do.



    The Department - not so much
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  13. #59
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    Watching RACO in the Dail committee earlier this weekend, (I had time) I was struck by the attendees. There was zero attendence from government "heavy hitters". Nobody far enough up the political ladder to actually have any influence. No former senior ministers, even though there are plenty on the committee. Even the title of the Committee itself Foreign Affairs and Trade, And Defence. Yet again Defence is stuck on at the end, and is otherwise irrelevant to the normal matters being discussed. Of the Attendees I notice 2 who are not listed as members. The senator, whose intentions seem to be expressing outrage in an attempt to get his share of the Defence vote, and the brethern of terrorists, whose support the defence forces could do without.

    Sean Barrett TD (In attendence, said nothing)

    Niall Collins TD (No sign)

    Sean Crowe TD (No Sign)

    Noel Grealish TD (Is that him sitting alongside the Chair?)

    Tony McLoughlin TD (In attendence)

    Maureen O'Sullivan TD (in attendence, but don't hear her ask anything)

    Brendan Smith TD (Chair)


    Jack Chambers TD (FF Spokesman on Defence. Not listed as a member, but asks questions, in his usual, relaxed, almost lying down manner. At one stage was on his phone, even though the chair in all committees insist all devices be shut off before commencing)

    Aengus O'Snodaigh TD (SF Spokesman on Defence. Not listed as a member)

    Senator Ivana Bacik (Not in attendence)

    Senator Billy Lawless (In attendence)

    Senator Gabrielle McFadden (In attendence, engaged with RACO, but all about maintaining the Status of Athlone)

    Senator Ned O'Sullivan (Didn't see him)


    Senator Gerard Craughwell (Not listed as a member of this committee. Asked questions of RACO that would have been better put to either the minister or member of the Dept. I lost any credibility for him when he decided to run for president, before when no support was forthcoming, withdrew his plans. Sen Craughwell likes to speak of his service in 2 armies, at every opportunity. RIR for 4 years, Irish army for 6 years. No mention of Overseas trips with either army, though maybe foreign trips were scarce between 1974 and 1980... We were only in Cyprus and Lebanon).
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  15. #60
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Dev,

    I have great time for you and this disagreement won't end that but you are being incredibly naive.What you are seeing on open source is what PSPC have put out.

    What you haven't seen and couldn't have unless you were either PDFORRA top table or PSPC. Is the almost book sized second submission from PDFORRA which is not published on the PSPC site or PDFORRAs own or the transcripts of the oral submission made by the Gen Sec.

    There is some serious work being done behind the scenes.Including at moderation on the WTD. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not happening. A lot of work is done quietly due to legal issues and so as not to prejudice negotiations or future legal proceedings.

    Again I ask you to retract the statement that PDFORRA is doing little.It is incorrect and misleading. If you need further clarification PM me.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  16. #61
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Dev,

    I have great time for you and this disagreement won't end that but you are being incredibly naive.What you are seeing on open source is what PSPC have put out.

    What you haven't seen and couldn't have unless you were either PDFORRA top table or PSPC. Is the almost book sized second submission from PDFORRA which is not published on the PSPC site or PDFORRAs own or the transcripts of the oral submission made by the Gen Sec.

    There is some serious work being done behind the scenes.Including at moderation on the WTD. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not happening. A lot of work is done quietly due to legal issues and so as not to prejudice negotiations or future legal proceedings.

    Again I ask you to retract the statement that PDFORRA is doing little.It is incorrect and misleading. If you need further clarification PM me.
    Quite possibly very true (if you say it I assume it is)

    But there is absolutely nothing to stop them being more public. Doing it behind closed doors plays into DoD’s and Government’s hands.

    They could well be acting but until it is in the papers (threat of blue flu got a major increase in AGS pay (not suggesting a green fly)). There is no pressure being applied in reality.
    Last edited by DeV; 2nd June 2019 at 11:29.

  17. #62
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    But there is absolutely nothing to stop them being more public. Doing it behind closed doors plays into DoD’s and Government’s hands.
    Two different approaches there. The approach PDFORRA seem to be taking is one that some PS unions take which is to not go public but instead do it all behind the curtain , and view public escalation as a part of a strategy. This approach makes sense if the 'Management Side' appreciate and understand this view, and that how the sausage is made is best in the back room. Fair enough if both sides engage in that way

    I am not sure, however, if the Department appreciates this; others closer to the issues know more, and because it is done in the small room we don't get to find out . I can't help but feel that with it starting to show in the BBC for example now that the more open debate is starting to show a little pressure to the Management side.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  19. #63
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  20. #64
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Quite possibly very true (if you say it I assume it is)

    But there is absolutely nothing to stop them being more public. Doing it behind closed doors plays into DoD’s and Government’s hands.

    They could well be acting but until it is in the papers (threat of blue flu got a major increase in AGS pay (not suggesting a green fly)). There is no pressure being applied in reality.
    Still no retraction.Seriously??

    Check PM's
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  21. #65
    Corporal irishrgr's Avatar
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    Well, we do indeed live in interesting times......the Green Party actually calling for an increase in defense spending, shock, horror!!!!! What next, painters painting, cops policing....is this the end of days :-)

    Although this announcement smells like something which was on the books already, it's getting wheeled out to show the govt. is doing something. Subtext: "We know you military people are complaining, so here's a nice barrack block, now fcuk off and leave the kids alone"

    While I'm happy to see service conditions improve, however, as a concept housing becomes a drain on any budget. Once times get hard, maintenance and upkeep goes out the window for years on end. Before you know it, the barracks are in deplorable state and it ends up costing more to rehab them than just maintaining them. I'm more in favour of just giving troops a solid housing allowance and let them decide where they want to live. Ideally, the housing allowance is by location and adjusted on a regular basis to keep up with inflation. Of course, a government can take an allowance away in a financial crisis, a bit harder to do that with an accommodation block.

    As an aside, in the US Navy, sailors assigned to a ship live and sleep on the ship when at home port, Navy generally doesn't provide off ship accommodation. (exceptions do exist for married, etc., but most junior ratings and officers will live on the ship) Don't know about Irish ships, but the ones here are not exactly kitted out like a cruise ship shall we say. Not taking a side on the issue, but it could be argued they are living rent free on a ship.

    A

  22. #66
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Dev,

    I have great time for you and this disagreement won't end that but you are being incredibly naive.What you are seeing on open source is what PSPC have put out.

    What you haven't seen and couldn't have unless you were either PDFORRA top table or PSPC. Is the almost book sized second submission from PDFORRA which is not published on the PSPC site or PDFORRAs own or the transcripts of the oral submission made by the Gen Sec.

    There is some serious work being done behind the scenes.Including at moderation on the WTD. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not happening. A lot of work is done quietly due to legal issues and so as not to prejudice negotiations or future legal proceedings.

    Again I ask you to retract the statement that PDFORRA is doing little.It is incorrect and misleading. If you need further clarification PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Still no retraction.Seriously??

    Check PM's
    I’ll rephrase .... PDFORRA are doing little publicly... I’ll accept what you say at face value and assume it’s correct

    But:
    - many of their own members (obviously not all) aren’t even hearing about it. I understand that the negotiations can’t be compromised (you see it with RDFRA as well) but all they have to tell them is that we met DoD C&A on x date and discussed a, b & c.
    - by not being public they are creating the space for bodies and individuals to fill that space and they are losing support because of it. I suspect that some of them possibly have other agendas.
    - Why would PSPC publish 445 pages of unredacted detailed RACO & ARCO submissions but only 16 pages of PDFORRA’s? If you say there was a much bigger submission I accept that (maybe it is part of phase 3?)

  23. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Still no retraction.Seriously??

    Check PM's
    I dont think he knows how to backpedal, firmly believes he can dig upwards

  24. #68
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Still no retraction.Seriously??

    Check PM's
    Happy to amend after PMs

  25. #69
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Happy to amend after PMs
    Thank you Dev. As I said things are not always what they seem.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  26. #70
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Thank you Dev. As I said things are not always what they seem.
    But the optics can be important too

  27. #71
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    Not sure if this is the right spot or not but the Examiner is saying that €9m is to be spent on housing on the Naval Base:
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...ff-928322.html
    Was this planned or a bit of reaction to show that "something is being done"?

  28. #72
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    Here's an idea, in the short term. P31 either is due to leave service shortly. Their is a shortage of accomodation for ships crews during refit or when ships are home etc. There are only enough crews we are told for 7 ships anyway. Why not just retire Eithne and use her as an alongside accommodation ship?
    I'm struggling to identify a suitable site in the Naval base that would be suitable for a new accommodation block.
    The DoD need to bite the bullet and either return to having married quarters close to military installations or pay each member sufficiently so they can afford to rent easily nearby.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  29. #73
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Here's an idea, in the short term. P31 either is due to leave service shortly. Their is a shortage of accomodation for ships crews during refit or when ships are home etc. There are only enough crews we are told for 7 ships anyway. Why not just retire Eithne and use her as an alongside accommodation ship?
    I'm struggling to identify a suitable site in the Naval base that would be suitable for a new accommodation block.
    The DoD need to bite the bullet and either return to having married quarters close to military installations or pay each member sufficiently so they can afford to rent easily nearby.
    That would entail taking up a berth full time.
    Having a ship decommissioned full time would still require a reduced ships company for maintainance, etc.
    Would be far more expensive than maintaining a building.

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  31. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    That would entail taking up a berth full time.
    Having a ship decommissioned full time would still require a reduced ships company for maintainance, etc.
    Would be far more expensive than maintaining a building.
    It's done in other Navies. HMS Bristol was an accomodation ship for many years. It's an immediate, if temporary solution in the absence of any identified site, or actual buildings suitable to be used immediately for accomodation, don't you think? The ship will be alongside until her future is decided in any event. Can NS vessels plug into 220 V shore supply?
    Very easy for the DoD to say today "we have plans to spend €9m on housing in the naval base" when unless I'm mistaken there is no room to build new accomodation on the island (that which is not still contaminated, at least), then let the plan languish for years while this moment of newsworthyness passes.
    By the time it eventually happens,(if it does) those who needed the accomodation today are long gone from the service.
    There is scarce supply of rental accom in Ringaskiddy that NMCI has not already cornered. Price of property in Carrigaline has gone nuts. Back Passage is Shinner central, no NS man or woman in their right mind should feel safe living there.
    So where is the O/Sea, O/Tel or O/Mech expected to live for those months of the year when they are not at sea?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  32. #75
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    . Back Passage is Shinner central, no NS man or woman in their right mind should feel safe living there.
    So where is the O/Sea, O/Tel or O/Mech expected to live for those months of the year when they are not at sea?
    Forgive my ignorance but Back Passage? Passage West?

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