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  • #46
    Watched the hearing, RAOC did a good job, they came across as an organization who cares about the DF (and by default their members) and how it is being allowed to wither on the vine. I was pleased to see they spoke just as much about the lot of the enlisted and NCO's, not just exclusively officers. Did a good job of "staying in their lane", not commenting on individuals, operational matters or matters for the govt. I'd like to see the DoD civil servants speak at a hearing like that, we'd heard from the uniformed leaders, the associations, let's see what the bean counters have to say for themselves.

    Questions: One of the RACO team was in uniform, what is the stance of the DF and wearing the uniform while not officially representing the DF? I'm sure the officer was smart enough to not break a rule/policy, just wondering how that works in Ireland. Here we absolutely cannot wear the uniform unless we are representing the service. Servicemen & women can testify in uniform if they are requested, our senior leaders do it all the time, but not under the auspices of an association. Lots of us are involved in associations, but the rules are clear, any such activity must be in a personal capacity (i.e. off duty & on leave).

    Having said that, it was a good presentation, but I don't have much optimism, defense is just not an issue in Irish politics. As one of the panel said, look at how much the govt will spend on rural broadband when compared to the DF.

    A

    Comment


    • #47
      The Government/DOD's briefing note to TD's/Senators on their position:

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        It photos I’ve seen are alledged in a Dublin Bks and haven’t been given to a voter... wouldn’t that mean it is someone who is in the DF that had custody of them?

        What if the person was on leave, overseas, etc etc
        They only made it to most locations the Monday or Tuesday of the election. It didnt give much time.

        Anyone that was not in receipt of a postal vote could still cast their vote in a polling station on the voting day.

        I am not sure how many did not make it to the overseas mission but EPMO do make a special effort

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by irishrgr View Post
          Watched the hearing, RAOC did a good job, they came across as an organization who cares about the DF (and by default their members) and how it is being allowed to wither on the vine. I was pleased to see they spoke just as much about the lot of the enlisted and NCO's, not just exclusively officers. Did a good job of "staying in their lane", not commenting on individuals, operational matters or matters for the govt. I'd like to see the DoD civil servants speak at a hearing like that, we'd heard from the uniformed leaders, the associations, let's see what the bean counters have to say for themselves.

          Questions: One of the RACO team was in uniform, what is the stance of the DF and wearing the uniform while not officially representing the DF? I'm sure the officer was smart enough to not break a rule/policy, just wondering how that works in Ireland. Here we absolutely cannot wear the uniform unless we are representing the service. Servicemen & women can testify in uniform if they are requested, our senior leaders do it all the time, but not under the auspices of an association. Lots of us are involved in associations, but the rules are clear, any such activity must be in a personal capacity (i.e. off duty & on leave).

          Having said that, it was a good presentation, but I don't have much optimism, defense is just not an issue in Irish politics. As one of the panel said, look at how much the govt will spend on rural broadband when compared to the DF.

          A
          The 2 in civis are seconded to the Representative Association as the Sec Gen and Deputy Sec Gen. The one in uniform is the President of the Representative Association. He is not on secondment. It is a role that he applied for and was voted into, in addition to his Legad duties
          Last edited by Fantasia; 1 June 2019, 08:46.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
            They only made it to most locations the Monday or Tuesday of the election. It didnt give much time.

            Anyone that was not in receipt of a postal vote could still cast their vote in a polling station on the voting day.

            I am not sure how many did not make it to the overseas mission but EPMO do make a special effort
            How does it work?

            Who delivers them to EPMO (and I assume COMO?)?
            I assume DoD aren’t involved?

            Comment


            • #51
              In fairness, traditional RACO would only really look after their own members interests (which is their job and what their members pay their subs for). Great to see them (the Association) taking active interest in enlisted ranks. Especially when PDFORRA are saying little publicly, hopefully the hard work behind the scenes gets the recognition and comes to fruition

              Edited in bold
              Last edited by DeV; 2 June 2019, 22:24.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                The Government/DOD's briefing note to TD's/Senators on their position:
                https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...rces-1.3911301
                There is one thing for sure DoD have the status quo at heart, not the Viability of the defence of the State

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  How does it work?

                  Who delivers them to EPMO (and I assume COMO?)?
                  I assume DoD aren’t involved?
                  A 2/Lt that couldnt get out of it, is sent to each Returns Officer in each constituency, collects the ballots, EPMO collates the lot and sends them to parent units for distribution.

                  Very teduous job. Takes a lot of time and effort to break them down into units. EPMO draw people in but everyone still has to be entered into PMS to check who they are and what unit they belong to, to make sure they get the right postal vote. A lot of people with the same names etc. EPMO do the work for all ranks

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    In fairness, traditional RACO would only really look after their own members interests (which is their job and what their members pay their subs for). Great to see them (the Association) taking active interest in enlisted ranks. Especially when PDFORRA are doing little.
                    Agree on the first point Dev.We should all be fighting for the same cause but I would ask you to retract the second part of your comment as quite frankly you are not party to what goes on behind closed doors in PDFORRA.
                    By making that comment you are merely trotting out the populist line spun by the likes of the former poster boy for the Army and his puppets the WPDF.

                    Neither of which have a access to ANY of the negotiation mechanism's or legal recourses that PDFORRA has so therefore are completely ignored by the Minister,the Minister of State ,the DoD ,C+A etc etc.Quite simply they are NOT the recognised representatives of enlisted members of the DF.

                    Please don't blindly parrot what bitter malcontents say but ask the people who who are doing the REAL work on the ground and getting dogs abuse for it what is REALLY going on.
                    You might be surprised to to learn something. Facts not Fiction.
                    ERROR 4.0.4Something  Went Wrong The page you are looking for was moved, removed, renamed or might never existed. Please Click on Home below to return to the main menu. HOME
                    Last edited by apod; 1 June 2019, 17:53.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Sigh : PDFORRA need a SAN certificate on their website , ask whoever runs it to buy one for *.pdforra.ie not just www.pdforra.ie as if you post links like that most browsers dont like them

                      As for the PSPC it was trolled openly to to check the reaction among the vox pop, it was tremendously negative so was pulled ( at least I think thats what happened )
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by apod View Post
                        Agree on the first point Dev.We should all be fighting for the same cause but I would ask you to retract the second part of your comment as quite frankly you are not party to what goes on behind closed doors in PDFORRA.
                        By making that comment you are merely trotting out the populist line spun by the likes of the former poster boy for the Army and his puppets the WPDF.

                        Neither of which have a access to ANY of the negotiation mechanism's or legal recourses that PDFORRA has so therefore are completely ignored by the Minister,the Minister of State ,the DoD ,C+A etc etc.Quite simply they are NOT the recognised representatives of enlisted members of the DF.

                        Please don't blindly parrot what bitter malcontents say but ask the people who who are doing the REAL work on the ground and getting dogs abuse for it what is REALLY going on.
                        You might be surprised to to learn something. Facts not Fiction.
                        https://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1641
                        Believe me I completely disagree with much (probably >80%) of what said individual and WPDF say

                        PDFORRA??

                        Which representative association put more effort in (considering the size of the membership).

                        PDFORRA:
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ds/PDFORRA.pdf (16 page phase 1 stakeholder submission)


                        RACO / ARCO
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...loads/RACO.pdf (2 page initial consultation)
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ACO-part-1.pdf (87 page phase 1 stakeholder submission part 1)
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ACO-part-2.pdf (88 page phase 1 stakeholder submission part 2)
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...ACO-part-3.pdf (71 page phase 1 stakeholder submission part 2)
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...O-pensions.pdf (13 page ARCO pension submission)
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...pensions-1.pdf (92 page pension submission part 1)
                        https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-cont...pensions-2.pdf (92 page pension submission part 2)


                        Note:
                        zero submission from PDFORRA (or IUNVA or ONE on other ranks pensions)
                        Zero submission from PDFORRA on initial consultation

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Absolutely agree that they have a difficult hand to play

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            RACO and PDFORRA do have access to C&A, RDFRA do not due to departmental policy Whereas we (RDF) started a very long way back with both the PDF and The Department, the PDF/RDF relationship has changed tremendously as PDF OCs and their staff get judged on their RDF sub-units as well and its a slim difference in most 451s and 667s so those that do the do.



                            The Department - not so much
                            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Watching RACO in the Dail committee earlier this weekend, (I had time) I was struck by the attendees. There was zero attendence from government "heavy hitters". Nobody far enough up the political ladder to actually have any influence. No former senior ministers, even though there are plenty on the committee. Even the title of the Committee itself Foreign Affairs and Trade, And Defence. Yet again Defence is stuck on at the end, and is otherwise irrelevant to the normal matters being discussed. Of the Attendees I notice 2 who are not listed as members. The senator, whose intentions seem to be expressing outrage in an attempt to get his share of the Defence vote, and the brethern of terrorists, whose support the defence forces could do without.

                              Sean Barrett TD (In attendence, said nothing)

                              Niall Collins TD (No sign)

                              Sean Crowe TD (No Sign)

                              Noel Grealish TD (Is that him sitting alongside the Chair?)

                              Tony McLoughlin TD (In attendence)

                              Maureen O'Sullivan TD (in attendence, but don't hear her ask anything)

                              Brendan Smith TD (Chair)


                              Jack Chambers TD (FF Spokesman on Defence. Not listed as a member, but asks questions, in his usual, relaxed, almost lying down manner. At one stage was on his phone, even though the chair in all committees insist all devices be shut off before commencing)

                              Aengus O'Snodaigh TD (SF Spokesman on Defence. Not listed as a member)

                              Senator Ivana Bacik (Not in attendence)

                              Senator Billy Lawless (In attendence)

                              Senator Gabrielle McFadden (In attendence, engaged with RACO, but all about maintaining the Status of Athlone)

                              Senator Ned O'Sullivan (Didn't see him)


                              Senator Gerard Craughwell (Not listed as a member of this committee. Asked questions of RACO that would have been better put to either the minister or member of the Dept. I lost any credibility for him when he decided to run for president, before when no support was forthcoming, withdrew his plans. Sen Craughwell likes to speak of his service in 2 armies, at every opportunity. RIR for 4 years, Irish army for 6 years. No mention of Overseas trips with either army, though maybe foreign trips were scarce between 1974 and 1980... We were only in Cyprus and Lebanon).
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Dev,

                                I have great time for you and this disagreement won't end that but you are being incredibly naive.What you are seeing on open source is what PSPC have put out.

                                What you haven't seen and couldn't have unless you were either PDFORRA top table or PSPC. Is the almost book sized second submission from PDFORRA which is not published on the PSPC site or PDFORRAs own or the transcripts of the oral submission made by the Gen Sec.

                                There is some serious work being done behind the scenes.Including at moderation on the WTD. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not happening. A lot of work is done quietly due to legal issues and so as not to prejudice negotiations or future legal proceedings.

                                Again I ask you to retract the statement that PDFORRA is doing little.It is incorrect and misleading. If you need further clarification PM me.
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                                Comment

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