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  1. #1
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    Air corps pilots to be trained by the RAAF in Australia.

    Air Corps pilots to train with Royal Australian Air Force
    Proposed initiative is aimed at improving capacity for training pilots in the Air Corps


    Air Corps pilots are to be sent for training with the Royal Australian Air Force under proposals approved by the Cabinet on Thursday.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...orce-1.3967541

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    Maybe when trained up, they will be gifted the RAAF F18s too?
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    I had posted that in the news section but never mind.

    My thoughts what twin engined aircraft are they going to be using in the 15 months? The Spartan? Also I'd wonder about the bit about nobody else in Europe providing this training? Is that actually nobody else was willing to do it for free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I had posted that in the news section but never mind.

    My thoughts what twin engined aircraft are they going to be using in the 15 months? The Spartan? Also I'd wonder about the bit about nobody else in Europe providing this training? Is that actually nobody else was willing to do it for free?
    I'm sorry I didn't see your post.

    A question, why would the aussies go for this, training a pilot is expensive and lengthy and they are going to do this for free?.....this seems weird.
    Last edited by Rocinante; 26th July 2019 at 04:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I had posted that in the news section but never mind.

    My thoughts what twin engined aircraft are they going to be using in the 15 months? The Spartan? Also I'd wonder about the bit about nobody else in Europe providing this training? Is that actually nobody else was willing to do it for free?
    They will be training on King Air 350's at No 32 Sqn.
    The RAAF use this squadron to train their pilots for maritime operations so that fits well. As for what they will do their operational 15 months in, most likely the old AP3, can't see them getting their hands on a P8. However if the C27 is to replace the CASA then the Spartan could be also an option.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Would Italy not be a bit closer and cheaper (assuming it is because of the C27)?

    Wonder how long after the 19 months training & operations said 2 pilots will leave the AC and join the RAAF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocinante View Post
    I'm sorry I didn't see your post.

    A question, why would the aussies go for this, training a pilot is expensive and lengthy and they are going to do this for free?.....this seems weird.
    The Aussies pay for the initial training - the human and technical infrastructure they've already paid for - but then they get a live body, trained to their standards, for free for a year.

    Absolute bargain.

    The danger, as @Dev suggests, is that said aircrew decide that Australia, with its weather, lifestyle, massively expanding military capability, compares somewhat favourably to Ireland and counting fishing boats...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    The Aussies pay for the initial training - the human and technical infrastructure they've already paid for - but then they get a live body, trained to their standards, for free for a year.

    Absolute bargain.

    The danger, as @Dev suggests, is that said aircrew decide that Australia, with its weather, lifestyle, massively expanding military capability, compares somewhat favourably to Ireland and counting fishing boats...
    I wonder is the intent more so to see what they need from a military transport aircraft as opposed to specifically being what the C27 can do.

    Either way there are places a lot closer to home. But Australia also use the PC9 so it could potentially be to see if it is possible to make the jump direct to something like the C27.

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    Australia are moving to the PC21 from the PC9 Though the PC9 is also used in the FAC role.
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    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I read this and didn't believe it

    Who came up with this wheeze ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  19. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I wonder is the intent more so to see what they need from a military transport aircraft as opposed to specifically being what the C27 can do.

    Either way there are places a lot closer to home. But Australia also use the PC9 so it could potentially be to see if it is possible to make the jump direct to something like the C27.
    But can Italy offer the same type of Training that Australia can offer when you take into account the topography in Australia would be close to some of the Operational areas any hypothetical Irish C27 could be tasked to?
    Last edited by CTU; 26th July 2019 at 12:46.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed! I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    I read this and didn't believe it

    Who came up with this wheeze ?
    This can only end badly. You can imagine the conversation in the Dept - "The Aussies will train our pilots for free ? Great - now tell me again what we need the PC9's for ?"
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqra View Post
    This can only end badly. You can imagine the conversation in the Dept - "The Aussies will train our pilots for free ? Great - now tell me again what we need the PC9's for ?"
    I think their might be some dispute over whether that's a bad result....

    If, instead of the current 'whole training pipeline' model, AC front and rear crew were sent off to friendly air arms to be trained, and then used by that friendly air arm for a years free labour, with the crews then coming back to airlift and MPA/ISR aircraft instead of PC-9M's, that would, imv, not be a retrograde step...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    But can Italy offer the same type of Training that Australia can offer when you take into account the topography in Australia would be close to some of the Operational areas any hypothetical Irish C27 could be tasked to?
    The RAAF frequently train in the Pacific and New Zealand which pretty much covers the entire topographical range. These guys are going to get global training opportunities including tier 1 multi-national combined force exercises like Talisman Sabre, Southern Katipo or Northern Shield.

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  25. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Wonder how long after the 19 months training & operations said 2 pilots will leave the AC and join the RAAF
    Unless they are Australian citizens or from the UK&NI, Canada, NZ or the US with military experience that wont happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    I think their might be some dispute over whether that's a bad result....

    If, instead of the current 'whole training pipeline' model, AC front and rear crew were sent off to friendly air arms to be trained, and then used by that friendly air arm for a years free labour, with the crews then coming back to airlift and MPA/ISR aircraft instead of PC-9M's, that would, imv, not be a retrograde step...
    That presumes an integrated, whole of service, training and development model. What , in recent experience, leads you to believe that the Department (even less DPER) understands or believes in such a model. The only reason this is being contemplated is because a) it's free and b) it's a "good news" story to keep the masses entertained. Oh and c) - it's FREE !
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    Unless they are Australian citizens or from the UK&NI, Canada, NZ or the US with military experience that wont happen.
    Billy Hedderman who released a book last year transferred from the Irish Army to the Australian Army. Not an Australian citizen either but surely same deal with RAAF?

    He was a ARW officer to be fair.

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  30. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    I think their might be some dispute over whether that's a bad result....

    If, instead of the current 'whole training pipeline' model, AC front and rear crew were sent off to friendly air arms to be trained, and then used by that friendly air arm for a years free labour, with the crews then coming back to airlift and MPA/ISR aircraft instead of PC-9M's, that would, imv, not be a retrograde step...
    The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is
    If the system is already broken, it seems somewhat odd to be determined to preserve it.

    You need something new, whether that's the system, the offer - which is more than just the money - or both. But you need to change what you're doing, because it's not working.

  32. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is
    Just to clarify a few things for those playing guessing games.

    This move has been in the works for months now, it is only becoming public knowledge due to the Taoiseachs' speech.

    The move has absolutely nothing to do with the C-27. The AC won't be getting any of them. It isn't even remotely a possibility.

    This 'Pilot training' is not abinitio training. Already qualified pilots will be participating.

    Everything EU Fighter stated is correct.

    @ Dev, you are making a lot of statements about things you know absolutely nothing about. Guessing is fine but stating things as fact is completely horse shit. Please stop.
    Last edited by Chuck; 26th July 2019 at 18:30.

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  34. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Just to clarify a few things for those playing guessing games.

    This move has been in the works for months now, it is only becoming public knowledge due to the Taoiseachs' speech.

    The move has absolutely nothing to do with the C-27. The AC won't be getting any of them. It isn't even remotely a possibility.

    This 'Pilot training' is not abinitio training. Already qualified pilots will be participating.

    Everything EU Fighter stated is correct.

    @ Dev, you are making a lot of statements about things you know absolutely nothing about. Guessing is fine but stating things as fact is completely horse shit. Please stop.
    Obviously Government approval would be one of the final steps as the plan needs to set up first to get Government approval.

    It wasn’t me that first suggested that it could be to do with the C27 and you’ll notice from my post it starts “I wonder...”. I actually missed EUfighter’s post. And it is kind of strange considering the C27 probably would qualify for the CASA replacement.

    Nor did I suggest that these were cadets going for abininto training.


    Here’s a few facts from the article:
    - there should be 107 pilots in the AC
    - there is currently <80
    - a lot of AC experienced pilots have been lost by the AC in the last 2 years
    - we are sending away 2 of those to Australia for a significant period of time


    It is a positive step but there is a lot of places closer to home where it could be done
    Last edited by DeV; 26th July 2019 at 18:31.

  35. #22
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    Dev, you stated the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is
    Please outline which aircraft and missions are not being completed as a result of a lack of pilots.

    All I can think that you are referring to is the standing down of the standby air ambulance aircraft. You'll see in many articles that this was based on a 'staffing constraints'. You can have as many pilots and techs as you want but you can't launch an aircraft without ATC (GASU being the exception in this instance). 24/7 ATC ceased around the same time as the aforementioned standby roster.

    If you can think of others, please let me know because I'd love to hear them and address them.

    Again - your assertion that they could have been sent somewhere closer to Ireland is nothing but conjecture and that sort of Ill informed comment is more suited to the journal or twitter. You don't know what avenues were explored. You are just jumping to conclusions because you've only just learned about it.

    The AC routinely have pilots on overseas missions doing non air roles. Between form up, overseas deployment, post mission leave and the subsequent reacquisition of ratings etc that could easily last 12 months. What's more beneficial to the AC? An overseas mission or spending 1-2 years with a credible air force learning and developing its people.

    If you happen to know of another nation closer to home that were willing to provide access to their fleet and cover the costs of type ratings etc, I suggest you let the AC and DoD know.

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  37. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Dev, you stated the following:



    Please outline which aircraft and missions are not being completed as a result of a lack of pilots.

    All I can think that you are referring to is the standing down of the standby air ambulance aircraft. You'll see in many articles that this was based on a 'staffing constraints'. You can have as many pilots and techs as you want but you can't launch an aircraft without ATC (GASU being the exception in this instance). 24/7 ATC ceased around the same time as the aforementioned standby roster.

    If you can think of others, please let me know because I'd love to hear them and address them.

    Again - your assertion that they could have been sent somewhere closer to Ireland is nothing but conjecture and that sort of Ill informed comment is more suited to the journal or twitter. You don't know what avenues were explored. You are just jumping to conclusions because you've only just learned about it.

    The AC routinely have pilots on overseas missions doing non air roles. Between form up, overseas deployment, post mission leave and the subsequent reacquisition of ratings etc that could easily last 12 months. What's more beneficial to the AC? An overseas mission or spending 1-2 years with a credible air force learning and developing its people.

    If you happen to know of another nation closer to home that were willing to provide access to their fleet and cover the costs of type ratings etc, I suggest you let the AC and DoD know.
    So there is no pilot shortage in the AC ?

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    So, are you saying that literally NO air arm between here and Australia would conduct a service swap / exchange for two pilots? Not even little ol' Malta, with whom we have close connections? Or the French? Or the Swedish? Two countries from which we have bought many weapons and conducted UN ops with? Not even a tour of Mali with the French!!?? All the way to 'Stroilya, to fly King Airs??!! Why only two? Kind of pointless to send only two. All it takes is a bad pint in King's Cross and you're down 50% of the available strength. You'd think even the Swiss would offer a couple of slots in their world-class air force, given the steady business we have given their prime manufacturer. Or even Spain, considering how many euros we have given Casa. I don't know. Maybe the Minister is scrabbling around, looking for a good news story...

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  40. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    So there is no pilot shortage in the AC ?
    Why don't you answer my question first. Then I'll answer yours.

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