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View Poll Results: New Pistol for the Defence Forces.

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  • GLOCK 17

    48 23.76%
  • SIG P226

    96 47.52%
  • Walther P99

    10 4.95%
  • CZ75

    2 0.99%
  • Beretta 92

    30 14.85%
  • FN GP35(Mk3)

    16 7.92%
  • H&K USP

    0 0%
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  1. #1
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    New Pistol for Defence Forces.

    Sources inform me that a competition is currently in progress to decide on a new Pistol for the Defence forces,with many of the old Brownings suffering from slide failure,and the increased use of pistols by the Naval Service for Armed Boarding Parties since the retirement of the Gustav.
    The current favourite is the Beretta as used by the US Forces,and I would be interested to hear opinions of our brethern in the US of this weapon,which replaced the Mighty Colt 45 in the late 80s. The Italians have been good to the Defence forces lately,with such equipment as the OTO Melara guns on the New PVs,the Iveco ASTRA DROPS,and the New 4x4 Truck.
    How do you rate the Beretta operationally?
    The choices given are those in the running for the present competition. Your votes would be appreciated.
    It is worth noting that all types fire 9x19mm Parabellum.


    Glock17,(worth Noting that the Glock 18 has the option to fire full auto..)


    SIG P226 ,


    Walther P99 ,


    CZ75 ,


    Beretta 92 ,


    Browning Hi Power(FN GP35) ,


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  2. #2
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
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    The Glock is a love-it-or-hate-it weapon.

    Personally, I hate it.

    I have great respect for the thing on a mechanical basis, I've a friend of mine who swears by it. Certainly it puts the round where I aim it at, and it has a very high magazine capacity. (On the order of 15+1). It's also hugely reliable. However, it just doesn't fit comfortably in my hand, it's a little squat, and just feels 'wrong'. Smaller-handed persons may also have difficulty in reaching around the grip. I'm in two minds about the symptom of the Glock KaBOOM! Allegedly, this symptom is caused by the barrel and chamber not being fully supported, and it does come up in conversation on various fora (Shortened to KB!), but frequently, the problem is with the ammunition. (Over-powered or badly made)
    I also think it's ugly! Also, frequently the magazines do not drop clear of the weapon when released.

    The Glock was not entered into the US competition because the US wanted a double-action feature: if the round didn't fire the first time, they wanted to be able to just pull the trigger to try again. Glock's internal striker system doesn't do this. (Though frankly, if I were using the thing in combat, I'd just rack the slide and eject the finnicky round)

    You may have three contendors from the SIG-Sauer factories.. The P-226, P-228 and P-2309. The first two are 'Classic' SIGs, the latter a 'SIG Pro'. The P-228 has been accepted into US service as the M-11. Only two weapons passed the US Army's selection tests, the SIG being one of them, the Beretta being the other. The main difference between the -228 and the -226 is that the former is a compact design. The shorter barrel and smaller capacity magazine weapon was selected primarily for MP and aircrew use, since there are frequently those in those branches who have smaller hands and simply couldn't handle the M-9. (Read: Women). The only reason the Beretta won over the SIG was on cost. Both had met all qualifications. SIG has a reputation for reliability and quality. Not quite Kimber standard, but certainly upper-end.

    If I am sent on a deployment anywhere, I'm entrusting my life to a SIG. I have purchased a P-2340 (.40/357 version of the 2309), and it's going with me in my holster. The SIG-Pro series differs from the Classics in having a polymer frame, like the Glocks. It's less expensive, but the quality is as good as the Classics. It sits a little higher than the Glock though and, due to the plastic frame but metal slide, can feel a little top-heavy if you're not used to it. All SIGs come with a decocker for a safe lowering of the hammer when a round is chambered.

    A point to note is that neither Glocks nor SIGs come with any sort of external safety catches whatsoever. There is no way that the thing can go off if the trigger isn't pulled, but it's simply a case of 'when you pull it, it goes bang'. These are weapons designed for high-stress combat.. people have died because they forgot to take off a safety catch under pressure.

    I cannot speak for either the Walther or the CZ, but by reputation on shooting fora, both of them are fine weapons.

    Similarly, I've not mucked around with the Browning Mk 3. But they'd really have to get rid of that annoying magazine safety. Such a feature has no place in a combat pistol.

    The M-9 Beretta is the last of our bunch.. (Personally, I might also recommend the H&K USP, I have found it to be the nicest, smoothest 9mm I've ever used). It suffered some bad press after slides would break and hit shooters in the face, but this was traced back to seriously overpowered ammunition used by SEALs. Certainly it's accurate and easy to shoot, my first time on the range, I scored 'Expert'. I wonder sometimes about the semi-exposed barrel, if it'll pick up dirt or not into the mechanisms. We've had a few failures-to-fire at the range, but we're not entirely sure if it was the fault of the weapon, the ammo, or people mixing up slides and frames. (In California.. or at least in Santa Cruz, we have to store the slides and frames separately). There's absolutely nothing wrong with this weapon either.

    NTM
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  3. #3

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    I believe the SIG has already been purchased by the DF, the corps of engineers are making their way around the country at a leisurely pace condeming all BAP's on sight !!!

    I also heard that the SIG purchased is double action only, i.e. most SIG's are cocked and fired with the trigger for the first round, thereafter the trigger releases the hammer only.

    Result -- 14lbs trigger pressure on every round.

    This is not a marksmans weapon.

    And no they are not called Markspeople Earhart!:p

  4. #4
    Sciath Bailer's Avatar
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    <font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">Personally I'd stick with the BAP (MKiii) The newer version of a reliable weapon Simple enough

    </font>
    Friends Come and Go, but Enemies accumulate!!

  5. #5
    C/S
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    I own Beretta 92D. I use it on a daily basis and it has never given me a problem. I chose it over the Sig for two reasons. The Sig did not feel right in my hand and it cost almost twice as much. Incidentally, my friend bought a Sig at the same time I bought the Beretta and his was recalled due to manufacturing faults that would cause major safety issues if not repaired. Neither weapon will cause a person to shoot better and both of them are excellent weapons. I have heard about the jamming problems and they are normally caused by using ammo that is not powerful enough to cycle the slide.

  6. #6
    Recruit
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    Have a look here, this is the madra's cahones
    http://www.metalstorm.com/
    This is the weapon of the future, based on, believe it or not. inkjet printer technology!. unfortunately you need a broadband connection to download the promo mpg's there huge

    jbkenn

  7. #7
    Loose Cannon Loque's Avatar
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    As far as pistols go the beratta would be quite adequate, the army has already bought the sig for the MP's so it may just continue buying the sig as a replacement.
    Personally I only use the pistol once or twice on the range and also for security. I do think that the BAP should be replace ASAP before someone gets injured from using such an old and worn weapon, there is one in my unit with an almost smooth bore from so much use. Oh yeah and guess you gets to use it on the range, that's right, muggins here!
    As far as smg's go, I think that the gustaf smg should have been replaced with a H&k MP5 or an FN P90.

  8. #8
    ²°°³Soldier
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    I may be wrong (it won't be the first time - before someone else says it ) but didn't the US purchase the Beretta 92 to replace their Colt 45s. Anyone know (I'm looking at CT and Ex-Pat) how these weapons worked out.

    I would imagine that if the DF have purchased the Sig for the PA's they would have tendered for the entire replacement of the BAP, the PA's just got theirs first.

  9. #9
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
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    See my (limited) comments on the M-9 above. The American army gives almost everything an "M" series designation, regardless of what the manufacturer calls it. (Much like the Brits giving most things an 'L' designator). Basically, it's doing the job asked of it, other than the size issue, requiring the purchase of the M-11s, it seems to be doing well.

    US Pistols in service

    M-1911A1 (Colt 45)
    M-9 PDW (Beretta 92FS)
    M-11 (SG-Sauer P-228)
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  10. #10
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Something else that must also be considered,though many may consider it trivial, is will the new pistol fit the holsters currently in use?
    The Gardai have this difficulty at present as most,if not all of issued holsters are for the revolver,and the type of holster sold by Protak is unsuitable for the SIG already in use by certain garda units.It has a taller frame and will not sit as well as other automatics,such as the Walther P7 previously used by the Gardai specialist units. The solution for most firearms users has been to order a personal holster from the US.
    The fact is that any new pistol will spend the majority of its time in a holster,and all decisions will depend on this.
    How many wearing pistols have found it impossible to close vehicle doors because the holster is in the way?
    This is where the Glock and Walther could loose out,because their shape does not suit the current issue holster. Its taken long enough to change the pistol,having to change holsters again to facilitate a new weapon would not go down well with the Q.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  11. #11
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    Just to update this one, press reports stated that the SigSauer 226 was chosen, and then the purchase was "deferred".

    It also had the most votes on this thread. Coincidence?
    :p
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  12. #12
    Lost Watchdog
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    Glock blues

    The West Australian police are currently replacing their S&W .38 revolvers with .40 Glock 22s. The coppers union is bitching that cos it has no external safety catch it can go off unexpectantly, as as happened a few times in Sydney, and killing the officer or his mates. But no one seems to have questioned why a copper would have a round chambered when his pistol is holstered. It's simple really, keep your finger off the bloody trigger. I've had a blast of the Glock and like others have said you either love it or hate it. I find the pistol grip too small. I know its not NATO standard but .40 packs a punch. I've also had a go at a .40 Beretta, absolutely shagging awesome.

  13. #13
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The time taken to draw and cock a sidearm in a police situation is the time taken for the other guy to get off the first shot.
    This is why most police forces prefer Double action Pistols and revolvers. The RUC recently decided to stick with their revolvers instead of changing to semis,as the arguement was "how do you cock a pistol while driving or if one arm is out of action?"
    That was a rhetorical question,I do not expect many stupid answers..


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  14. #14
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    Police almost everywhere carry their sidearms with loaded chambers. In a double action pistol this isn't quite the same as "cocked". In double action pistols the hammer stays down until the trigger is pulled. Pulling the trigger also cocks the hammer immediately before firing.

    The BAP is a single-action pistol, so the hammer needs to be back before pulling the trigger. This is not a generally great way to carry a holstered pistol, which is why you won't see police carrying BAPs or other single action pistols. For military users, who normally carry their weapons unchambered, this isn't a problem.

    The Glock isn't really either single or double action. It doesn't have a hammer, and the striker is always cocked. It has a sophisticated trigger design to prevent the gun going off without pulling the trigger, but a fairly light trigger pull at the same time.
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  15. #15
    Beard On T.I.M.'s Avatar
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    Well seeing that the gardaí use the SIG P226 it would be the more realistic option, but personaily i preffer the FN GP35(Mk3).
    Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...

    http://www.iamawesome.com/

  16. #16
    Little Legionnare
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    WHat about the newer 2009 version of the P226?

  17. #17
    Harry
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    New Pistol: 45. ACP vs. 9x19mm

    Now that the Department have put the Pistol contract on hold...should they re-evaluate the whole thing. A lot of US units are now moving back to the .45 ACP after 15 years of the M9 and US LEO's are flocking back to weapons like the Para Ordnance and Kimber in droves. Given the ever increasing danger of Irish Overseas ops., should the Army be giving those who use sidearms that bit more stopping power. Historically, the Irish have had strong links to the 1911, i.e. Michael Collins "Squad" were avid fans of the calibre and had the guards been armed from day one, the .45 revolver had been earmarked. I understand that in interests of compatibility with other armies, the 9mm is standard but by the way things are going in the US, how long will this be the case?. Of course for NS and possible Air Marshall ops, there is no question but use the 9mm or lower but in places like Liberia, would a 45. be better. Do the ARW have any 45.'s in their inventory??

  18. #18
    CQMS
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    the wing doesnt use a .45 pistol,i think the only short they use is the 9mm sig-sauer p226.
    apparently, the yanks have had a fair few problems with their 9mm pistols because their 9mm round is more powerful than that used by european armies/law enforcement,which results in increased wear-and-tear on their weapons. europe has had less trouble with the 9mm, so i doubt if anyone really feels the need to replace it on this side of the atlantic,as they do in the US.
    anyway, the 9mm is in such widespread use at this stage with armies all over the world that it's hard to imagine the .45 knocking it off the top spot. a lot of armies have purchased new-generation 9mm's only fairly recently (the glock,p226 etc), and they arent about to get rid of them anytime soon.

  19. #19
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Plus most 45 can only carry 6 to 8 rounds in the magazine,while the average 9mm can hold up to 16rounds. Stopping power is fine..but as the change to 5.56 showed,carrying more rounds is far more useful.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  20. #20
    2/Lt strummer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Goldie fish
    Something else that must also be considered,though many may consider it trivial, is will the new pistol fit the holsters currently in use?
    The Gardai have this difficulty at present as most,if not all of issued holsters are for the revolver,and the type of holster sold by Protak is unsuitable for the SIG already in use by certain garda units.It has a taller frame and will not sit as well as other automatics,such as the Walther P7 previously used by the Gardai specialist units. The solution for most firearms users has been to order a personal holster from the US.
    The fact is that any new pistol will spend the majority of its time in a holster,and all decisions will depend on this.
    Its taken long enough to change the pistol,having to change holsters again to facilitate a new weapon would not go down well with the Q.
    That's got to be a uniquely Irish angle on the whole issue. Deciding on a $1000 purchase (OK, up to $1000) based on reluctance to buy a $30 holster to accompany it.

    Please, let someone with some sense be in charge for a while !!!

    Later.
    No-one, I think, is in my tree...

  21. #21
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Well one holster may be $30.But considering the quantity that would have to be replaced,and the tight fistedness of the GS(who are reducing the numbers of qualified firers as a cost saving measure) will make it an issue. And who will take all the Leather 38 holsters off their hands?


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  22. #22
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    Cal Tanker, all along I had the image of you owning a Glock, even if it is known as Cuddly SIG.
    Originally posted by strummer
    That's got to be a uniquely Irish angle on the whole issue. Deciding on a $1000 purchase (OK, up to $1000) based on reluctance to buy a $30 holster to accompany it.
    But how would they explain throwing out perfectly good holsters to the department?

    [MOD: Is there an echo in here?.Read the last line of Goldies post]
    Last edited by Victor; 3rd February 2004 at 22:53.

  23. #23
    2/Lt strummer's Avatar
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    But by that logic wouldn't they be complaining about disposing of the .38 revolvers too !!! Perhaps they could throw in the holsters as part of a job lot if they could sell the pistols. (yes, I know there is some directive about not selling them, perhaps they could donate them to a "poor" police force.)

    Didn't the same issue come up every time they changed uniforms?

    Or radios?

    Or squad cars?

    Later.
    No-one, I think, is in my tree...

  24. #24
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    Military flap holsters are basically just pouches, not the same close fit as police holsters.
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  25. #25
    C/S
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    Originally posted by strummer
    Or squad cars?
    Tend to be sold at auction. In fact the IRA used an ex-Garda Grenada(?) in a robbery.

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