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View Poll Results: New Pistol for the Defence Forces.

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  • GLOCK 17

    48 23.76%
  • SIG P226

    96 47.52%
  • Walther P99

    10 4.95%
  • CZ75

    2 0.99%
  • Beretta 92

    30 14.85%
  • FN GP35(Mk3)

    16 7.92%
  • H&K USP

    0 0%
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  1. #26
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    SIG is a great weapon - extremely reliable
    currently used by ARW

  2. #27
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    The army put the whole competition on hold a few months back due to NATO deciding to adopt a new pistol round (Possibly .40 S&W). Rather than buy a new 9mm pistol, they decided to wait and get a pistol in the new calibre. NATO have not decided yet, but the DOD have decided to cancel the whole purchase. I was reported in the irish press last autumn.

    We are not going to be getting new pistols for a while.

    Personally, Sig Sauer.

  3. #28
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    The competition was stalled due to budget cutbacks, regardless of excuse.

    Any calibre review is still at an early stage, and the 9mm wont be changing for decades as the most common issue round. The calibres being looked at are 5.7 x28mm and 4.6 x 30mm.
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  4. #29
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    The German military is in the process of switching from 9mm to 4.6mm with the mp-7 and a new pistol.

  5. #30
    CQMS
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    yeh but the 5.56mm is a rifle round,this would be a pistol round with a much smaller charge behind it

  6. #31
    BQMS
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    Afew years back I worked for a unit that was armed with SIGs and we were told that before we joined when the BAP was replaced everyones marksmanship improved by about 30%.
    We started off using high powered Israeli ammo but this was found to create cracks in the slide just aft of the ejection port (not good) however the armorers got around that by introducing a reinforced block that was inserted in the slide and by insisting that during cleaning the weapon the user inspected for cracks.

  7. #32
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Given that we have a new minister,and they found a few million under the matress,is there any chance that this programme will be reopened? The BAP is getting more and more scarce,as the older types fail inspection due to frame and slide weakness(Cause of a number of fatal or serious accidents in the UK)


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  8. #33
    the gunney greyfox's Avatar
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    I'd personely go for the Beretta on cost alone.
    Sigs are expensive and for that extra you certainly get a better pistol in the Sig,but the Beretta would certainly fill normal requirments.
    "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

  9. #34
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    On cost terms, the Beretta wouldn't come out on top, the Glock or CZ would be well under.
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  10. #35
    Colonel Chief Bubblewrap's Avatar
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    This might sound really dim, but don't they all do the same job? Reliability shouldn't be a problem if they are properly maintained, unless the war comes (in which case we’re screwed because we’d be allied with the Americans). Keep in mind that pistols aren't really meant for targets more than 50m away, so marginal inaccuracy is negligible. If it is the case, why not just buy the cheapest and laugh all the way to the bank?
    Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

  11. #36
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    This might sound really dim, but don't they all do the same job? Reliability shouldn't be a problem if they are properly maintained.
    They do indeed do the same job, in the same way that all cars do the same thing, how well they do the job is another matter. As with so many other products, reliability depends as much on the effort the manufacturer put into making it as the effort the user puts into caring for it.

    Going back to the car metaphor a Rover Metro & a VW Golf do the same thing, but one does it far better than the other.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    ...unless the war comes (in which case we’re screwed because we’d be allied with the Americans).
    How does involvement in 'the war' impact on the reliability of a pistol?



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    Keep in mind that pistols aren't really meant for targets more than 50m away, so marginal inaccuracy is negligible.
    That all depends on how 'marginal' any inaccuracy is.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    If it is the case, why not just buy the cheapest and laugh all the way to the bank.
    We're back to Rover Metros here.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  12. #37
    Colonel Chief Bubblewrap's Avatar
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    Some good points, nice use of the COMPARISON - (not a metaphor)

    "How does involvement in 'the war' impact on the reliability of a pistol?"

    It MIGHT be used a little more often, and in a war situation you'd like a totally reliable weapon. The Irish army are unlikely to pick a fight in the near future, and the use of the weapon would be for training purposes, and security, where it would be unlikely to be used. In these roles it would need to be reliable, but it wouldn't be in use constantly, for example, in a wartime scenario! Why buy an expensive golf when all you need is a run-about to do your shopping in, twice a week? The inherent reliability that comes with a new weapon would be sustained for an extended period.

    "That all depends on how 'marginal' any inaccuracy is."

    Marginal = Very small
    Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

  13. #38
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    It MIGHT be used a little more often, and in a war situation you'd like a totally reliable weapon.The Irish army are unlikely to pick a fight in the near future, and the use of the weapon would be for training purposes, and security, where it would be unlikely to be used. In these roles it would need to be reliable, but it wouldn't be in use constantly, for example, in a wartime scenario!
    I'd like to think you need a totally reliable weapon at all times. While the DF is unlikely to pick a fight in the near future, it is likely to be using this pistol for a long time to come. The DF's current pistols have been in use for decades & they are likely to expect such longevity from it's replacement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    Why buy an expensive golf when all you need is a run-about to do your shopping in, twice a week?
    What if you had to make that same, bi-weekly shopping run in the same car for 35 years? What would choose then? Every officer & senior NCO in the DF is expected to fire it at least once a year, that's a lot of useage regardless of operational tempo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    Marginal = Very small
    Marginal by whose standards? Yours?
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  14. #39
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
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    The difference in cost between the SIG and Beretta in the US M-9 competition was about 387.14 for the Beretta, and $388.34 for the SIG. (Including support/service and such like). Hardly a big difference.

    NTM
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  15. #40
    Colonel Chief Bubblewrap's Avatar
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    I think what you're trying to convey is the value of the pistol with respect to the length of time it will be in service, which is a good point. What I’m saying is, if they are properly maintained, which a lot of the BAPs were not, the longevity of a less expensive pistol would be extended and the D.F. could save some cash. Same goes for you Metro analogy.

    “Marginal by whose standards? Yours?”
    No, the dictionary’s.
    http://www.advfn.com/money-words_ter..._marginal.html
    Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

  16. #41
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    What I’m saying is, if they are properly maintained, which a lot of the BAPs were not, the longevity of a less expensive pistol would be extended and the D.F. could save some cash.
    Firstly, how do you know a lot of BAP's were improperly cared for? Secondly, if a pistol is inherently unreliable then no level of end-user care can correct this. As an example, the Beretta M92 suffered from a number of slide failures. The end result is that Beretta had to produce a strengthened slide to correct this.

    The DF are trying to modernise. They don't need to go back to the situation where penny-pinching is put ahead of their needs. With a mentality like yours you should look for a job in the Dept. of Finance, they think along the same lines as you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaddafi
    No, the dictionary’s.
    Ok, let me rephrase. Can you give us the levels of accuracy of the above pistols & tell us what differences you would call marginal.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  17. #42
    Colonel Chief Bubblewrap's Avatar
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    I had a lovely conversation with a CQ a couple of weeks ago, where he mentioned that the BAPs are crap for one main reason - they were improperly maintained from the start.

    "The inherent reliability that comes with a new weapon would be sustained for an extended period."

    If the inherent reliability is poor, logically the unit will be prone to failure, and such would be unacceptable - because it doesn't do the job. Service longevity of the pistol is a requirement.

    My first post; "...but don't they all do the same job?"

    To which you replied; "They do indeed do the same job, in the same way that all cars do the same thing, how well they do the job is another matter."

    If a car has a faulty engine, then it's of little use. It doesn't do the job.

    If a pistol is flawed then it shouldn't be considered. The pistols to be considered, I would determine would be of sufficient quality to last the test of time, and have similar accuracy capabilities, i.e. they do the same job equally. So why not just buy the cheapest and have some pocket change left over?

    “With a mentality like yours you should look for a job in the Dept. of Finance, they think along the same lines as you.”

    Logical lines?

    "Ok, let me rephrase. Can you give us the levels of accuracy of the above pistols & tell us what differences you would call marginal."

    Very small differences.
    Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

  18. #43
    Private 3*
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    undefined
    Quote Originally Posted by mutter nutter
    The German military is in the process of switching from 9mm to 4.6mm with the mp-7 and a new pistol.
    The German Army is introducing the MP-7 in the 4.6mm calibre for the crews of softskinned vehicles only. All others will continue to use the H&K MP-5 in calibre 9mm. They got a new pistol (P-8) in 1999 and this will be the standard pistol for a good while. As they also have 2 other calibres (5.56 - G36 and 7.62 - MG 3) the logistics guys should have some fun..... :wink:

    The P-8 is a slightly modified military version of the H&K USP. I've had a chance to use it and think it's good. Easy to use and reliable. It's being used by a lot of SWAT units around the world too. But then, when does the DF ever get anything German?

  19. #44
    Sergeant Major B Inman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank
    undefined

    But then, when does the DF ever get anything German?

    HK33, HK33SG1, MP5, MAN Trucks and Karcher Field kitchens are some of the German manufactered material that has/is being used by the DF.

  20. #45
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The Army Bands and the Equestrian school have germans in their History...


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  21. #46
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    God I hope Gaddafi is taking the piss, either that or he works for the Department of Finance and Defence
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  22. #47
    Colonel Chief Bubblewrap's Avatar
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    I am not a piss-taker.

    I may be a sexist, a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, a piss-taker, but i am not a porn star!
    Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

  23. #48
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Last night I was talking to an exer friend of mine who served in ordnance, he said that the notion that the BAPs were improrperly maintained from the start is news to him.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  24. #49
    Cpl waterbaby's Avatar
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    I'm not up to date on pistols, But I've fired the bap and have been told that I had potential marksman on it. I am trying to find out if it is possible to get a pistol on civvie street as some target shooters have already recieved a licence for one. I have asked about Cpl's firing the bap in competition but was told it was only for senior NCO's & Officers.
    I had the good fortune to be able to fire a 44 Magnum while on Hols this year, now that is some weapon!

  25. #50
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I fired the BAP in competition last year as a Corporal,I wasnt the only one. To my knowledge,anyone who is qualified to fire the BAP(ARPs etc) is eligible to fire in Competition.
    Whoever told you has their facts seriously wrong. Could it be because you are in fact(gasp) a woman?


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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