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  1. #251
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios.
    Mainly because the RDF is not able for it. I hear so many time why can't we do this or that, why aren't we jumping out of Mowags etc.
    Most RDF can't handle a rifle safely. We don't do the basics right. Why should we expect to do anything more complicated?
    You go on most PNCOs Cses and the number of people who have done section in attack or stayed on the ground overnight is in the low teens.
    The RDF isn't ready for anything more than the basics and that is unlikely to change for a while.

  2. #252
    Gunner concussion's Avatar
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    Plus there's no money or interest to get us to a credible, consistent base level let alone allow us to practice the situations seen in Iraq or Afghanistan.
    "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

  3. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios.
    In fairness, some NCOs and officers do their best. On a parade night we were presented with a scenario of being confronted with armed militia, after receiving a CO/D6 lecture, who were acting aggressive but not actually engaging. Myself and a couple of the other lads were in the place of militia confronting the section. It ended with us laying down weapons and our "ringleader" playing with his mobile phone after the section had advanced next to a concealed IED (a mortar tube). We ran it again afterwards and results, according to the NCOs, were more satisfactory.

    Now, I'm not sure if the NCOs have attended courses on the subject, but it definitely got the interest of the troops, was a change of pace and presented us with a scenario that soldiers around the world are facing on a daily basis.

  4. #254
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    But I stand by my opinion that digging in and operating from harbour areas in fields and forests is a thing of the past for the common infantry soldier
    Tell that to the British Army they still do them.


    Every training exercise I've taken part in so far in the RDF has ended up going up against 3 angry men in a field with poor morale. I've yet to hear of an exercise whereby we're taking on a Pln of highly trained and motivated paratroopers who are conducting a recce ahead of possible invasion or a drug-crazed militia going on a sporadic killing ramage through villages.
    Walk before you can run, people who have been on courses in the last few years will have enemy with armour etc.

    I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios. (again, I'm not fully abreast of what the PDF get up to, so I'm talking from an RDF viewpoint) I've seen RDF NCO's fold when I casually ask them one on one, what do we do when we're mid-way through a Pln assault and a multitude of other firing positions open up? The normal answer is, "It's okay, the Coy/Bn are right behind us, they'll take the fight to the enemy..." as if to say that everytime that a platoon is asked to conduct a foot patrol, the Coy will be right there with them ready to act as on the spot QRF.
    Unless you are part of a patrol (generally smaller than a platoon) they are correct, if you are advancing to contact or similar that is.

  5. #255
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Would a multitude of firing positions be called "Depth positions " by any chance.
    ALL and i mean ALL the platoon (and quite often section) attacks we PDF Infantry types do in training have depth positions opening up on us.Usually at the most inopurtune moments.Go to the NCOTW and they employ bunkers etc that are next to impossible to locate(binos are a must for all i/c's)Casualties and PW's are also always introduced. Counter IED training is now on our Pot NCO syllabus and is growing to other courses.A "Lessons learned" cell is being set up as part of DDFT branch along with a page on the D trg intranet site.So i think you might be looking at things from a snails eye view SaS.We arent as backward as you might think.
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    You go on most PNCOs Cses and the number of people who have done section in attack or stayed on the ground overnight is in the low teens.
    The RDF isn't ready for anything more than the basics and that is unlikely to change for a while.
    Well there lies a core problem with the organisation. Putting inexperienced people on Pots courses simply because they're 3 stars is wrong. How are standards supposed to upheld when the person charged with teaching you barely more qualified than you? Blind leading the blind comes to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxtrotRK View Post
    In fairness, some NCOs and officers do their best. On a parade night we were presented with a scenario of being confronted with armed militia, after receiving a CO/D6 lecture, who were acting aggressive but not actually engaging. Myself and a couple of the other lads were in the place of militia confronting the section. It ended with us laying down weapons and our "ringleader" playing with his mobile phone after the section had advanced next to a concealed IED (a mortar tube). We ran it again afterwards and results, according to the NCOs, were more satisfactory.

    Now, I'm not sure if the NCOs have attended courses on the subject, but it definitely got the interest of the troops, was a change of pace and presented us with a scenario that soldiers around the world are facing on a daily basis.
    Now there's a good use of iniative from your NCOs, and I doubt it cost a penny extra to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Tell that to the British Army they still do them.
    Never said they didn't, but the BA do have fantastic OBUA facilities that are regularly used.

    Walk before you can run, people who have been on courses in the last few years will have enemy with armour etc.
    That's good to know mate, I don't expect the RDF to evolve or change anytime soon, but there's no harm in voicing an opinion in the meantime.

    If we're talking about walking before running, then I'd say tackling enemy armour is almost sprinting, particularly if you're infantry.

    Unless you are part of a patrol (generally smaller than a platoon) they are correct, if you are advancing to contact or similar that is.
    In that particular conversation, I was referring to a Pln patrol, not a Coy in attack. The context being, that the Pln is on patrol, is contacted by what are initially inferior forces, assaulting that position, only to be engaged by more enemy forces in multiple firing points; the question being "then what....?". Not having trained as an infanteer, I was genuinely interested as my own opinion would have been to bug out or hold the ground and call for support depending on the ammo/cas state.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Would a multitude of firing positions be called "Depth positions " by any chance.
    ALL and i mean ALL the platoon (and quite often section) attacks we PDF Infantry types do in training have depth positions opening up on us.Usually at the most inopurtune moments.Go to the NCOTW and they employ bunkers etc that are next to impossible to locate(binos are a must for all i/c's)Casualties and PW's are also always introduced. Counter IED training is now on our Pot NCO syllabus and is growing to other courses.A "Lessons learned" cell is being set up as part of DDFT branch along with a page on the D trg intranet site.So i think you might be looking at things from a snails eye view SaS.We arent as backward as you might think.
    Apod, I don't consider for a moment that the PDF is in anyway backward, quite the contrary. And I hope I'm not being perceived as being condescending in my questions and opinions. In areas where I lack experience, I try to apply logic, and if I'm wrong, I'm grateful to be corrected.
    I'm talking from the point of view as a private in the RDF, and from such a position, I don't see any of the training you've just mentioned, nor hear of it from my RDF colleagues.

    Out of interest, would things like the IED training and other such "lessons learned" have been passed onto the RDF PNCO syllabus as well as the PDF?
    Last edited by SwiftandSure; 14th April 2010 at 00:01. Reason: spelling errors

  8. #258
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    Also, I purposely avoided the term 'depth position' Apod, as it seems to denote in my RDF experience so far, a single position probably manned by a single man probably no further back from position 1 than 50m.

    It never feels realistic, surely if the enemy are cunning enough to place depth positions, then you'd think they'd place cut off groups to engage the manoeuvre groups to slow the advance or kill the i/c on his recce, or if they're going to place depth positions beyond position 1, then they'd be at least 200m back, spread apart with interlocking fields of fire, relocating to out flank you on each bound and has position 1 pre-zero'd in with arty/mortar.

    I'm sure the enemy on exercise is a lot more challenging in the PDF, but in the RDF so far, it's been too simple, and no enemy should be that simple. "Train as you fight" was mentioned earlier, and it's got to be naive to assume your enemy will just dig in and stay put waiting for you to fight through their position.

  9. #259
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftandSure View Post
    Well there lies a core problem with the organisation. Putting inexperienced people on Pots courses simply because they're 3 stars is wrong. How are standards supposed to upheld when the person charged with teaching you barely more qualified than you? Blind leading the blind comes to mind.
    And you have the whole problem with the RDF in one sentence. But nothing is changing.

    Don't blame the PNCOs Cses - with failure rates in the high 80%, standards are being maintained much to the chagrin of many units. Yes a lot has to change and, if anything,its getting worse. But introducing dynamic enemy forces or asymmetric operations into a force where Section in Attack is considered complicated is a recipe for disaster. Walk before you can run or in the case of the RDF, try and teach the basics and hope some of it sticks. Someday, if things change, we might be able to move onto more complicated stuff.

    And the PDF are a completely different story.
    Last edited by Docman; 14th April 2010 at 11:03.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post
    And you have the whole problem with the RDF in one sentence. But nothing is changing.

    Don't blame the PNCOs Cses - with failure rates in the high 80%, standards are being maintained much to the chagrin of many units. Yes a lot has to change and, if anything,its getting worse. But introducing dynamic enemy forces or asymmetric operations into a force where Section in Attack is considered complicated is a recipe for disaster. Walk before you can run or in the case of the RDF, try and teach the basics and hope some of it sticks. Someday, if things change, we might be able to move onto more complicated stuff.

    And the PDF are a completely different story.
    I wouldn't blame the course Docman, just the suitability of some of the candidates. I'm confident that the syllabus is appropriate, although I haven't been on the course myself, yet.

    I won't bang on about how to cost effectively improve the RDF, it's all been said before anyway. Besides, at this stage, I've gone waaaaaaay off topic

  11. #261
    CQMS Keef's Avatar
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    I don't use Webbing, I had a molle belt which I put my own things on.
    From L to R along the belt:

    Drop pouch. 2 utilities. Water bottle pouch. 2 ammo pouches.

    My 2 mag pouches are located just above the drop pouch on my Osprey, so changing a mag is one movement. Mag off, down into the pouch and on the return picking up another.

    The 2 utilities, one used for my Rifle cleaning kit, oil bottle, scotch brite, latex gloves, paintbrush and flannelette.
    The other utility I used to carry link when I was a minimi gunner. Now the personal medkit is in there along with other usefull goodies such as batts.

    Water bottle pouch holding water bottle with puri tabs.

    2 ammo pouches on the right used for smoke, grenades and I put my night sight in there for quick and easy access.

    Med pouch located on the right side of my Osprey as per SOP's.

    I've a camelback daysack:


    Mag pouch on the front where I hold Cyalumes.
    Inside the daysack then:
    -Gtex
    -Sasquatch
    -Gtex socks
    -Spare socks
    -Rations
    -Jetboil
    -Spare gas
    -Comms chord
    -Scentless baby wipes
    -Helly Hansen
    -Sealskin hat
    -Eye and ear defence
    -Spare ammo. 5.56 and link.
    -Serial kit (whether it's a Viper, STIX, CWS or SARF)
    -Headtorch w/ spare batts.
    -Knife
    -Handsaw
    -Secreters

    I'll post pictures when I go back to the UK where my kit is.

  12. #262
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    Cheers for the post Keef, it's always good to see what lads are carrying in the real world. Look forward to seeing the pics.

  13. #263
    Commander in Chief RoyalGreenJacket's Avatar
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    nice one Keef - you looked the business out there in Afghanistan so it's good to know what you carried and it will be good to see your kit.

    did you manage to hang on to much of the Osprey's molle kit?
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  14. #264
    CQMS Keef's Avatar
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    Held onto a few pouches alright. Only used the medpouch and a grenade pouch. I had my own CQB pouches. Grenade pouch was for my smokes though :P



    The white plasticuffs were for holding the barrel grip on the GPMG.
    Last edited by Keef; 8th August 2011 at 13:03.

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keef View Post
    The white plasticuffs were for holding the barrel grip on the GPMG.
    I like that idea!

    Half the time, we're lucky to issued a sling with the fecking thing!

  16. #266
    Private 3* Celtic-Warrior's Avatar
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    I reckon the plasticuffs idea would work on the warrior rigs some imoers use

  17. #267
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Anyone have a soft copy of An Cosantoirs/Connect Standard NCO Kit list? Thanking you kindly

  18. #268
    Lt General apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Anyone have a soft copy of An Cosantoirs/Connect Standard NCO Kit list? Thanking you kindly
    Yup.You need it??
    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  19. #269
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Anyone have a soft copy of An Cosantoirs/Connect Standard NCO Kit list? Thanking you kindly
    Have a much better one is higher res but too big for IMO - will e-mail it onto you if you want.
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