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tyovan4's research paper on the IRA

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rod and serpent
    8: The "ambush" in Loughgall, AFAIK, began as an attempt by the IRA to carry out a section in attack on the barracks/outpost. Aside altogether from the tactical lunacy of attacking with assault rifles a position which has both fortifications and and more (and more heavily armed) defenders than you have attackers, I understand the IRA men in question co-operated with their opponents by runnning out, two at a time, into a wide open area covered by several British automatic weapons.


    Very interesting not accurate.
    Surrely Tyovan 4 would be interested in a more substantial answer than that (as, im sure, would some of the rest of us!)
    "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

    Comment


    • #17
      The devolved Parliament was suspended in 2002 over allegations of IRA intelligence gathering. Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, the IRA pledged to disarm, however it has yet to do so. In December 2004, PIRA was involved in a $50 million robbery from the Northern Bank. And in January 2005, Robert McCartney, a Catholic from Belfast, was brutally murdered in a pub fight by IRA men. The IRA the returned to the scene of the crime to destroy forensic evidence and has been widely accused of intimidating witnesses. With the war against the British over, people in Northern Ireland say that IRA members have degenerated into mafia-like gangsters who prey on their own people. For now it appears that the group is losing the support of mainstream Catholic and Republican opinion. Many ordinary Catholics, experts say, are less concerned with the IRA dream of a united Ireland than simply being allowed to live untroubled by gunmen and warlords.


      I'm sure you are aware of how important sentence structure is in a paper like this- my lecturers and tutors keep emphasising this. I'm not being arrogant, just trying to be helpful here...


      The IRA the returned to the scene of the crime ....don't forget the "n"
      And in January 2005...starting a sentence with "And" is, I believe, poor use of grammar
      by IRA men. The IRA ... I know the use of "IRA" is in two different sentences, but to me (and it may only be me!), this looks like repetition. Try and drop one "IRA" and put something different in its place.
      a brilliant ambush ...as JAG said earlier, this is very subjective. Using brilliant in such a way could lead to accusations of bias. Change it.
      They soon became known as the Black and Tans due to their distinctive uniforms...There is another story which says that they were named after a pack of hounds- anyone hear of this?

      Can you quote us your sources for your paper?
      "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by stameen soldier
        Surrely Tyovan 4 would be interested in a more substantial answer than that (as, im sure, would some of the rest of us!)
        I think I had mixed up two completely separate incidents. And I have a feeling they may have been decades apart as well.
        Take these men and women for your example.
        Like them, remember that posterity can only
        be for the free; that freedom is the sure
        possession of those who have the
        courage to defend it.
        ***************
        Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
        ***************
        If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

        Comment


        • #19
          The ambush in Loughgall was set up weeks in advance the IRA had a less than zero chance of of success. From the outset the IRA were out manned and out gunned, it would have been a text book operation apart from the fact that two civillians were caught up in the middle of it.

          This operation followed a number of attacks on rural police stations in the mid 1980s where the IRA would attack and destroy those with little or no protection.

          Comment


          • #20
            Looks like a pile of sh1te to me.

            Comment


            • #21
              The original article would make Danny Morrison proud. Purely from an academic viewpoint, there is no analysis in it, it's purely a narrative of historical facts with a very green bias.

              As for JAG's points:

              1. RIC were Irish, in Belfast interestingly enough, most of them were Catholic. Tans & Auxies were British. Irishmen who had fought in the British Army kept a very low profile as they were prime targets for the IRA despite on the whole, posing no threat. Auxies got one shilling a day and were recruited from former officers.

              2. Point on Bloody Sunday as a reprisal is debateable...some hold that it was a search for weapons and suspects which went very wrong, at that point probably turning into a reprisal.

              3. The raid in the Phoenix Park was either during the Civil War or right after it, was not during the WoI.

              4. The Warrenpoint bombs were not on timers, they were command detonated from a vantage point inside the Republic.

              5. Would be interested to see your references for Blood Sunday death toll. Whatever about Derry in 1972, there were several instances were shot terrorists had their weapons removed by fellow terrorists to make it look like they were unarmed when shot.

              6. The Loughgall attack was not "lunacy" on the part of the IRA, they had destroyed a station at The Birches using the same plan, huge bomb in a digger. The station was manned on a part-time basis and was not manned when Lynagh's gang attacked, a fact they were aware of. Some of them got out and started shooting off rounds as an act of bravado then they detonated the bomb in the digger, blowing the station to pieces which acted as a signal for the boys from Hereford to unleash some serious lead. Some Provos claim a 9th terrorist was there, who knows? As R&S says, it was a great op, unfortunately the Hughes brothers got caught in the middle. As for Blair's Govt's craven decison to pay compensation to the relatives of these scumbags on the basis of a European Court of HR decison, pass the sick bucket. Big Boys' games, big boys' rules.

              7. What piece of paper do TD's write their names on? Sounds like you're confusing this with Dev's way of getting around the oath of allegience in 1927.

              8. The paramilitary arm of RSF is CIRA, a relatively recent development, seeing that O'Conaill and, I believe O'Bradaigh were told by the Provos that if they set up a rival terrorist group after the 1986 split, they would find themselves dead.

              Tyovan, if you chose this topic yourself, I recommend you reconsider - trying to do a Readers Digest of Irish history in the last 800 years probably won't get you a great grade. Narrow your focus. And don't go near Republican web sites to help your research, especially the American ones, they're twice as bad as the shite the Provos put out over here.
              "Hello, Good Evening and Bollocks..."

              Roger Mellie

              Comment


              • #22
                4: There was also an IRA raid on the Garda magazine in the Phoenix Park, when millions of 9mm ball was stolen. And later turned up in the corpses of RUC men.

                3. The raid in the Phoenix Park was either during the Civil War or right after it, was not during the WoI.

                This raid- on the Magazine Fort- took place in December 1939. Most, if not all, of the stolen ammunition was recovered, and then some more. An IRA radio transmitter was also seized.
                "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by combatlogo
                  The Loughgall attack was not "lunacy" on the part of the IRA, they had destroyed a station at The Birches using the same plan, huge bomb in a digger. The station was manned on a part-time basis and was not manned when Lynagh's gang attacked, a fact they were aware of. Some of them got out and started shooting off rounds as an act of bravado then they detonated the bomb in the digger, blowing the station to pieces which acted as a signal for the boys from Hereford to unleash some serious lead. Some Provos claim a 9th terrorist was there, who knows? As R&S says, it was a great op, unfortunately the Hughes brothers got caught in the middle. As for Blair's Govt's craven decison to pay compensation to the relatives of these scumbags on the basis of a European Court of HR decison, pass the sick bucket. Big Boys' games, big boys' rules.

                  True, the tactic had proved itself to be effective on previous occasions, the station at Loughgall was supposed to be unmanned that night but a few adrenaline junkies in the regiment decided they would rather be in the station during the attack, how the **** they survived is anyones guess.
                  Agree totally with your comments on the compensation thing, strange that members of murdered security forces have never been offered compensation. :confused:

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Don't repeat DO NOT want to get into silly arguements over facts I haven't checked. The corrections I made to Tyovan's essay were from memory, so I'm not going to cry too much if they're wrong. But, having said that:

                    1: I'll take your word for it.
                    2: Truth being the first casusalty etc- we'll never know for sure. Point was the picture involved more than a massacre at a GAA match.
                    3: It happened. And the rounds were later used in the troubles.
                    4: I stand corrected
                    5: A book called Rebel Heart I read over ten years ago. The author did a tour around Belfast with Martin McGuiness, and got a load of first hand statements from IRA men and former RUC/BA personnell. An anonymous statement is not the most reliable source in the world. And I could be mixing up two books again.
                    6: My mistake.

                    Hang on- armed terrorists attacking a military installation have a right to life now? You go out with the intent of causing harm, and harm comes to you, what the fcuk have you got to complain about, except the fact that the other guys were better prepared than you. Compensation? Bollocks. I don't see the IRA, LVF or any other terrorists on either side of the divide handing the proceeds of various fundraisers out to the families of the 3,000 odd.

                    7: Nope, no confusion. Sinn Fein view their seats in Dail Eireann as a big joke, and that is apparrantly common knowledge in Leinster House. Not sure what TD's do before taking their seats and couldn't be bothered checking, but Sinn Fein TD's do it with their fingers crossed, and they make sure everyone sees their fingers crossed.
                    8:According to this site

                    CIRA and Republican IRA are one and the same, it appears.
                    Take these men and women for your example.
                    Like them, remember that posterity can only
                    be for the free; that freedom is the sure
                    possession of those who have the
                    courage to defend it.
                    ***************
                    Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
                    ***************
                    If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The only thing silly here, JAG, is you making claims without checking your facts.

                      The Magazine Fort in the Phoenix Park was raided by the IRA in December 1939 & small arms ammunition taken. The bulk of that ammo would have been .303in for rifles & machine guns. The Gustav didn't enter service with the PDF until the 50's, and Adrian English's 'Irish Army Order of Battle' states that only 36 SMG's of varying types were available, so I don't know where you got 'millions of rounds of 9mm ball' from.

                      Also, what proof have you that ammo that originated in the fort ended up being fired at RUC men? Sounds like bullshit to me.
                      "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FMolloy
                        Also, what proof have you that ammo that originated in the fort ended up being fired at RUC men? Sounds like bullshit to me.
                        If I could bother my arse spending a couple of hours or days researching it, I'd tell you what proof there was. And there are some things I don't even bother disputing.

                        As it stands, I think I'll get much greater satisfaction from just pointing out that WHAT THE FCUK ELSE DO YOU THINK THE IRA ROBBED A SIHT LOAD OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION FOR?

                        hunting wascally wabbits, perhaps?
                        Take these men and women for your example.
                        Like them, remember that posterity can only
                        be for the free; that freedom is the sure
                        possession of those who have the
                        courage to defend it.
                        ***************
                        Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
                        ***************
                        If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'd advise you to spend the afforementioned time doing research, because if you rely on the your current info you'll continue to talk out of your hole.

                          What the IRA wanted to do with the ammo & what they actually did with it are two seperate things, smart arse. According to UK's National Police Officer's Roll Of Honour (www.policememorial.org.uk) and the RUC memorial site (www.royalulsterconstabulary.org) only five RUC men were shot in political violence between 1939 and the beginning of the IRA's border campaign that kicked off in 1956.

                          So either the ammo was used in at least one of those shootings (and you have proof of this) or the IRA sucessfully stored it for 17 years & then used it in the border campaign (and you have proof of this).

                          Or, more likely, you're spouting bullshit.
                          Last edited by FMolloy; 27 April 2005, 23:01.
                          "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Aye, but was the point not that there was no 9mm ammo taken - rather it was 45.cal for the Thompson sub machine gun, whcih was used in the border campaign attacks of the 1950's?

                            At least I do recall reading something mentioning that particular calibre of rounds.

                            However these may not have nessecerily(spelling?) have come from the Magazine Fort raid........
                            Last edited by Guest; 28 April 2005, 13:46.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              As I've said, the PDF only had 36 SMG's in stores, so the amount of ammo held for those weapons wouldn't have been huge. The border campaign didn't kick off until 1956, seventeen years after the Magazine Fort raid. I don't think the ammo would have 'kept' for that amount of time, especially giving the less than perfect conditions it would have been stored in.
                              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Dunno about that.

                                THE USArmy AAR about weapons capabilties in iraq reported that some SF snipers were using WWI era .50cal for the Barret 50 sniping rifle and that it wokred well........

                                To be objective, unless you know what conditon the Shinners may or may not have stored any ammo supplies in (and have proof of this) then who is to say that your more or less right or wrong than anyone else on this matter.

                                Comment

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