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Thread: Helicopters

  1. #26
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    Dependable? Sligo?

    Andy, what are you basing this stuff on, other than your own certainties?
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  2. #27
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    Mr Liam Kirwan estimates are clearly wrong

    Mr Liam Kirwan signed the fecking contract for the 3 bases. He is not just the source, he is the head of the contracting authority. The figures you have (of 30mill) came from an unattributed source in a newspaper.

    Your posts are riddled with errors, correcting you on all of them will take more time than I have. Lets just go with one more for the road.

    The S-92 did not win the tender, the three types tested were all judged to have met the technical criteria (EH-101, S-92 and EC-725). On the basis of the tender criteria, the tender committee reported to the Minister for Defence that the EC-725 was the most suitable aircraft for the Air Corps. After this, Sikorsky pitched in with an offer to send business the way of FLS aerospace, and following pressure being applied to the Minister by North Dublin FF TDs, he overturned the decision of the Ctte and chose the S-92. This was on very dodgy legal ground, and left himself and the Dept open to legal action, which ensued. The tender then had to be cancelled, and is still under review to this day.

    I am in fact completly correct.

    That would be a first.

    To answer C-Qs question, if this is indeed under review, the line I've heard (rumour) is that these are to be the two TTH helis from the original contract. Ties in with the Naval rumour de jure of a LPD type vessel.

  3. #28
    Vmax
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    Andy,
    It's Captain Liam Kirwan, and after reading your threads it looks like you have lost the plot .The private contractor is heavily penalised for the likes of aircraft or aircrew going off line.This is the reason it doesnt happen very often.The Aer corp have been losing SAR in Ireland since the early nineties when Irish heli's won the contract in Shannon.SAR coverage have never been as good as it is now and alot of lives have been saved because of it .That's what it is all about.You are going to find that SAR in Europe is going to go the civie route.Why,it doesn't take a rocket scienctist to work that one out.Your argumemt about civie's striking is very weak considering what happened in Sligo.As for value for tax payers money would YOU like to hazard a guess as to how much was spent trying to get Sligo off the ground.Maybe you could tell me a tax payer what we have to show for it.

  4. #29
    4 Star General andy's Avatar
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    I havent lost any plot, nor or any of my posts "riddled with errors"

    The main point im outining in this thread is the high economic cost this service is costing the tax payer, by privatising it out.

    Also taking issue with the lack of a coherent government policy regarding helicopters and the Defence Forces.

  5. #30
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    Andy you haven't backed up your contention that the a/c provides a more cost effective SAR service, so it would be a great assistance to your case if you could provide the facts and figures.
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  6. #31
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Andy defence policy is fully coherent and it could not be said to be otherwise, you're confusing incoherence with ridiculous, absurdist and short sighted.

    SAR is more of a burden than an organisation the size of the IAC could take without excluding "green" taskings, I know which I'd rather have.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  7. #32
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Since the Loss of SAR,the air Corps have been able to concentrate their efforts on the military tasks that for so long went ignored,and aircraft availability is at an all time high.

  8. #33
    Potential Liability yellowjacket's Avatar
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    This increased availability for military use hasn't just meant training benefits, in several cases in the last year, a/c helis have been available for casevac taskings for both injured DF and members of the public.
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    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  9. #34
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    Apoligies to Cuchulain, for my earlier remarks, he is clearly more qualified to post FACT on this subject then many others, [myself included], but I think, after several re-readings I can see a point to some of this.
    In theory, it is cheaper to have the Air Corps run SAR in this country, but in practice it is not, partly because of politics, and partly because of some fairly damning phyical constraints.
    The theory bit runs like this,; we will be owning the assets and they will be available for other taskings as required.
    The reality bit however says; we will have to look after these assets at ever increasing costs, and the only other task that they will be available for is very self-important people transport, there is no way anyone is going to transport troops into any kind of harm in a heli' painted snow white and harlot red.

    They way I see it is that a country has 4 choices with regard to SAR.
    [1] Use the forces: we tried that, it presents an unacceptable drain on Defence dosh, and before you know it our military air arm has been seriously compromised by an unsuitable mission. Perhaps if the service was a lot larger, and I do mean a lot.
    [2] The Darwinist approch: Let them all drown, I think mcgreedy would like that......'cause you are never going to catch him out on a fishing boat doing anything remotely resembling work anyway.
    [3] Set up a seperate operation: There are historical preceedents for this , eg. the RNLI, but a surface rescue unit is easier to operate and has a huge volenteer element, and they do a wonderful job, and have done for a very long time. Helicopter operations are a bit trickier and to set one up, to the standard required, would be very difficult, remember the RNLI has grown and evolved with the increase of shipping , fishing and the relatively recent intrest in leisure boating.
    [4] Hire a company:This company has already done the evolving and the development for you, and hire local people including those who have learned their trade withen the military and now find that they should move on from this vocation into 'normal' life whatever that is...................................... Ehhh, it's working.

    Personally I would love to see the IAC still doing SAR, I know that exers amongs the Coast guard have been known to feel a surge of pride when the IAC have pulled off a dodgy sortie, but we have to face reality. Let the Dept of the Marine handle it, and leave all the DF Air Corps budget to help the Irish Air Corps establish and carry out a new military mission, which will probally involve UN peacekeeping/enforceing operations, allowing many more lives to be saved in the worlds all to frequent trouble spots.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  10. #35
    4 Star General andy's Avatar
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    Andy defence policy is fully coherent and it could not be said to be otherwise, you're confusing incoherence with ridiculous, absurdist and short sighted.
    Some might say the above is incoherent.

  11. #36
    Cuchulain
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    Only if you are absurdist and short-sighted.

  12. #37
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Helicopters

    Reading today I see Sweden has accepted the Nh90...and that other wonderful nation that we are so often compared to...New Zealand is also accepting this machine as a repalcement for its Hueys.

    Germany has accepted delivery of its first batch of EC Tigers,

    The RAF has deployed its first Merlins to Iraq'

    Albania is to consider the NH90.Agusta Bell AB412 and AB 212

    The Bulgarians are updating their Mi17/24 with the Israelis,

    Israel gets its AH64Ds,


    And what happens in Ireland...we buy bloody flying sports cars for officers.

    Look what other people are doing they are aquiring helos with proper military capabilities not instantly convertable ministerial transports.

    The Allouettes are now 42 years old in concept and they still do the job they were designed to do in 1960....yet our Df has improved in every other way beyond this time except in the area of Air transport and mobility.
    Just visiting

  13. #38
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    not to rub more salt in, But New Zealnd is also investing an extra $3.4 billion over the next 10 year's in defence
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  14. #39
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    New Zealand needs it more than us. Most of that figure will go on not replacing,but creating a naval fleet,which at the moment consists of 2 Anzac frigates.(plus a plethora of assorted auxiliaries). Look at the size of the country. They need larger Helis than us.

    The AB139 will fill the midrange between light utility and Medium Utility(Cancelled..for now) Lets wait till they arrive before knocking them?

  15. #40
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    your still confident the medium heli will be bought GF?
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  16. #41
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Not in this Governments lifetime. However,the cushion of RAF backup is diminishing when it comes to SAR,and the Coastguard Helis are operating to their limits. Sadly it will take another bad winter or loss of life at sea before the Government realise that a Redundant capacity is required when it comes to SAR,and while not engaged for this task,plenty of use will be found for them.
    I believe if the Current GOC Air Corps had been in charge at the time of the MLH cancellation,it would not have been cancelled.
    Like him or loath him, Cranfield was a yes man.

  17. #42
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    We have the Greatest amount of coast line and sea coverage in western Europe and even Albania is taking a greater role in the procurement of helicopters.

    CHC do an admirable job in the coast gurd role..and thats some that needs to be a dress in other thread.

    What I'm getting at here is that we have an army that trains to deploy overseas in sizeable numbers and we fail to have an airwing to support them. we will have 4 machine capable of deploying atotal of 32 troops.....from a battalion sized force....this is ridiculous.

    If you have 4 machines chances of three of them being serviceable at any on time is the best average to be expected.

    Again as the Mowag syndrome sets in ..we bought the nicest thing on the shelf...but it wasn't what we needed.
    Just visiting

  18. #43
    Old Redeye
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    Yes, taking on the national SAR mission would be prestigious and good for the IAC, but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the heart of the problem manpower, in that to fully man SAR 24/7 would require an enormous increase in IAC personnel strength, particularly pilots and SAR Tech crewmen, which may not be achievable. The IAC was wise to ditch SAR since it would be all consuming at the expense of more pertinent military capabilities, such as tactical support helicopters.

    I submit that a professional, deployable military tactical support helicopter capability is the priority for the IAC over everything else - including #2 Airlift - and is attainable within realistic budgetary and manpower constraints. If the S-92 contract is indeed legally still alive and potentially binding for Ireland (doubtful),any S-92's obtained therefrom should be tactical support helicopter versions, fully deployable and committed to the EU Rapid Reaction Force (including the potential European Support Helicopter Force), or they should be committed to the national SAR role and operated entirely by a contractor on behalf of the coast guard.

    Should the S-92 in fact be a dead issue, then Ireland should go with not just the two AB-139 options, but a further two for a total strength of eight, providing an international deployment capability of 4-6 aircraft for up to six months as part of a multinational air component supporting a multinational force, similar to what we see now with ISAF in Afghansitan.

  19. #44
    SPOOKY
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    Question realism

    Look, please excuse my ignorance of AC logistical procurment costs, budgets, & operating life cycle costs, but isn't there some rather non-sourced talk here?

    Namely: Who says the AC will ever have an extra-territorial role -whther it be UN peace support or otherwise?
    (I have looked through all the policy documentation available to the public & can't find it anywhere -is this presumption a mental leap too far?)

    Surely using logical alone, IF:
    the AC cannot adequatly fund & operate a national SAR service, then how are they too attempt to do the same type of requirement (ie. 24hour call, Day/Night, AND in a potentially non-natural but man-made (MANPADS made..?) hazardous environment 100's or perhaps 1,000's of miles from base on UN missions?

    NB.
    Where will the money for the DEPLOYABLE maintainence, repair & servicing equipment come from?
    Where will the vehicles to transport this eqiupment come from?
    What about the costs involved in the logistics effort to supply the living quarters & security requirements for not just the aircrews, but the vital AC NCO& enlisted tech. support crews?
    What of the costs to ship or airfreight these airframes, technical support equipment, aircrew, air mantainence, security elements & livivng quarters to far off lands - and get them back again?

    then......... think all that for just a SINGLE airframe, what of the costs for 4-6?

    Just how much of Irelands UN standby commitment would actually go to providing this capability, and not just in costs terms, but in MANPOWER terms..............?

    Whether larger or AB-139 helicopters, isnn't this all just a tiny wee bit unrealistic given the current budgetary & fiscal environment for the AC?



    ALSO............

    the above relates to Irelands ability to operate a small number of C-130 type transport aircraft: e.g. what point is there is expending valuable & precious funds on a small government owned tactical aircraft fleet, when private contractors CAN & DO operate much larger aircraft
    (ie. Aanatov AN-1** range of transport aircraft)
    for DF charter lift requirements at present & do so effectively for less?

    Look at your arguments above. Then apply the same logic to AC transport tasks.

    Perhaps the AC should concentrate on building a NATIONAL effective military service before it starts going for more complicated & risky INTERNATIONAL missions, no?
    A single helicopter type -twin engined for safety- for rapid reaction (whether infantry ATCP, or SOF CT) tasks is an achievable target...........
    why then can the many myriad AC transport aircraft, not then be replaced by a single
    -twin engined for safety & training- transport aircrfat type for whatever duties the CASA & PC-9's can't do e.g. parachute training, rapid airlift of stores, airambulance, island relief, on island VIP transport etc. ?

    My suggestion is that the AC already use one rotary wing type for training and garda support - why not buy a small quantity of Nomander ISLANDER twin engined types, already in service with the garda air support unit to furfil this same goal in the fixed wing role?

    Is this an achievable goal?
    Last edited by SPOOKY; 29th May 2005 at 23:00.

  20. #45
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The special report on the AC/NS recommended that the AC WOULD NOT be deployed overseas

  21. #46
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    I think that rule has been in effect since the congo mission in the 60's
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

  22. #47
    BQMS
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    At the signing ceremony in Baldonnel for the AB139s last year, or early this year, the minister was asked if he ever saw them being used abroad. He replied: no.
    Last edited by FMolloy; 30th May 2005 at 18:03.
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  23. #48
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dublinmick
    At the signing ceremony in Baldonnel for the AB139s last year, or early this year, the minister was asked if he ever saw them being used abroad. He replied: no.
    Sure they cost a lot of money why should we use them for there intended purpose.

    YA HEAR THAT RANGERS YOU CAN LOOK AT THEM BUT THATS ALL.
    Last edited by FMolloy; 30th May 2005 at 18:03.
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

  24. #49
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    So tell us bam-bam....what is their (note correct use of spelling) intended purpose?

  25. #50
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPOOKY
    Perhaps the AC should concentrate on building a NATIONAL effective military service before it starts going for more complicated & risky INTERNATIONAL missions, no?
    That's exactly what they're doing, anything else is just speculation.


    Quote Originally Posted by SPOOKY
    A single helicopter type -twin engined for safety- for rapid reaction (whether infantry ATCP, or SOF CT) tasks is an achievable target...........
    Again, that's the plan.


    Quote Originally Posted by SPOOKY
    why then can the many myriad AC transport aircraft, not then be replaced by a single -twin engined for safety & training- transport aircrfat type for whatever duties the CASA & PC-9's can't do e.g. parachute training, rapid airlift of stores, airambulance, island relief, on island VIP transport etc. ?
    There's not 'many myriad' of AC transport craft - there's only the Cessnas and the King Air (when it's not doing MATS), the Gulfstream and the Learjet can't be classed as transport.

    The Cessna's are due for replacement in the next couple of years, the theory is that they'll be replaced by a smaller number of a more capable type.


    Quote Originally Posted by SPOOKY
    My suggestion is that the AC already use one rotary wing type for training and garda support - why not buy a small quantity of Nomander ISLANDER twin engined types, already in service with the garda air support unit to furfil this same goal in the fixed wing role?
    One example of a more capable type.


    Quote Originally Posted by SPOOKY
    Is this an achievable goal?
    Yes.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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