Air Corps:The future

[knocker]

Would the air corps have been able to afford more cougars than 139s if the tender hadnt been tampered with by the minister ?

[Jetjock]

find themselves a set of roles that only they can do.

The recent Tripoli mercy dash was an example of a step in the right direction. However a true airlift aircraft would have been much more effective. Multiple flights into a warzone is never a desirable option.

As regards helicopter operations, the AW139 fleet both in terms of numbers and kit can not fulfill an overseas role. With 6 aircraft a minimum deployment of two could not be supported. The current equipment fit is unsuitable in any case. The remind me of the UH72 Lakota in US service. Great for in country work, but they will never be deployed at the coalface.

When the UH tender document was issued, the word "military" featured strongly in the wording. Yet, they opted for a civilian helicopter painted green with a few minimal extras. Gucci kit only if you are looking for a job in civvy land when you get your ticket. How the Blackhawk was overlooked I'll never know.

Interesting, Sikorsky have recently opened a Blackhawk production line in Poland in order to maintain a low cost base and offer value for money purchases of the now venerable platform. I have often wondered had the Blackhawk been a European helicopter would they have won the order.

I cant help continuing to feel an opportunity was lost.

[Jetjock]

Would the air corps have been able to afford more cougars than 139s if the tender hadnt been tampered with by the minister ?

Different tenders. The MLH tender was cancelled outright in response to a court challenge by Eurocopter after the Air Corps had signed a contract with Sikorsky for the S-92. Sikorsky had offered an offset arrangement that was not specified in the tender and Eurocopter protested.

What resulted was the ending of the MLH acquisition process and the privatisation of SAR operations. What eventually resulted was the UH and LUH requirements for overall fleet replacements. Both were supposedly requesting military aircraft, yet the EC135(not the military 635) and the AW139 were the resulting winners.

[knocker]

What a mess , real shame the people at the sharp end were ignored

[Jetjock]

The bottom line always wins out. It wasn't helped by a White Paper that specified in Government policy that there would be no overseas role for the Air Corps, allowing a civilian helicopter to meet a minimum requirement. No doubt either that securing a military launch customer for the AW139 prompted Agusta Westland to offer a very attractive package. Strangely though(or not), another tender requirement along with it being military by design, was that a proven aircraft was required.

In the end, the Air Corps became the military launch customer for a helicopter designed for civilian use, with para military applications. Green paint was applied, GPMG's were put in the doors and here we find ourselves. Lamenting another lost opportunity.

[Aidan]

The White Paper played a huge role in that tender competition. If the tender could have been written with the expectation that the aircraft might, at some point, be deployed abroad, then it could have clearly specified what was required - including self sealing fuel tanks, armour for the crew and ideally provision for an EW fit. Because it wasn't, the cheaper running costs associated with the two European helicopters effectively ruled out the Blackhawk (by all accounts). In other words, the tender was written in such a way that a lighter cheaper to run aircraft was always going to win, because it had to.

The well repeated desire from the Army for the American product was like a lone voice crying in the wilderess by that point. That said, the politics of being seen to purchase such an obviously American piece of equipment were probably poisonous also. Pity really, because the Americans have been known to pass on airframes for which they no longer have any use. Might have been possible to pick up used aircraft in the future for the price of a refit. We'll never know now.

[danno]

The Air Corps needs to identify a role for itself, one that only they can do, that is needed by the state.

At times the AC hovers between a CS and CSS role.

[Jetjock]

At times the AC hovers between a CS and CSS role.

Pun intended?

[GoneToTheCanner]

I'm not sure the Don even knows at times, what it really wants to do. At least RJ was responsible for the plentiful access to helicopters that the Army now enjoys, compared to the old days when they had to beg for access. RJ also broke a few old "union rules, Bud" attitudes in the Don, for which the place is eternally grateful.
I doubt if cadet training will change in the next decade, at least.
regards
GttC

[Jetjock]

Not a reference to RJ, but his successor PF was over Flight Training when the Pilatus were introduced. Lots of improvements under RJ to be fair.

[GoneToTheCanner]

At least, they spend 30 hours in the box before they lay their hands on the real PC-9s, which reduces the chances of student failure or damage to an aircraft and is effectively akin to a civil-style Type rating.
regards
GttC

[Jetjock]

My only issue with the sim is that it's fixed base, so nothing more than a procedural trainer really.

[hptmurphy]

Outsource 100 hrs of basic flight training in both fixed and rotary wing. Return to Bal with 100 hrs under their belts and then fly the PC-9 or EC135

Plenty of flight schools around the place to do that.And would be more efficent in that you are not eating into maintaince hours of your own aircraft by doing so.

A costing would be interesting.

The Air Corps needs to identify a role for itself, one that only they can do, that is needed by the state.

the various governments in the past have done this for them..Its called MATs and about the only incraft in the fleet that hasn't carried out the role in some capacity is the PC9.

What you need to do is stop your political masters eating into your flying time and thus freeing up aircraft and crews and maintainence to give some credible alliegence to Army Co Operation.

We never seem to be able to get all of one type in the air at one time.......Pilots, cost , maintainence , or have we a notional fleet witha few' hanger queens 'hiding discretely on the wings.

[morpheus]

I was on a 2 day ex at the weekend that was supposed to involve heli's.

we were told the heli's weren't there as they had chewed up our hours flying around for lizzie and barrack.

[hptmurphy]

I was on a 2 day ex at the weekend that was supposed to involve heli's.

we were told the heli's weren't there as they had chewed up our hours flying around for lizzie and barrack.

Irest my case.