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  • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
    Not that much of a step really. The other OPV (italian made) P61 also has a deck capable of operating an AW139.
    The new vessels are around 4 times the size, have a beam of 13m compared to 8m. While technically a AW-139 could land on the older P61 (Saettia Mk3) is possible it is much safer on a larger helideck.
    Plus a seperate covered mission deck.

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    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      The new vessels are around 4 times the size, have a beam of 13m compared to 8m. While technically a AW-139 could land on the older P61 (Saettia Mk3) is possible it is much safer on a larger helideck.
      Plus a seperate covered mission deck.
      The Saettia Class patrol vessel was designed as an attack missile craft-4 shafts with 40knots- and had subsequent Mark variations to become an OPV with 2 shafts and a flight deck for whatever will fit on it. It's a small craft, with shallow draft, and would be limited to less than rough sea states to be totally effective. The new Maltese design-75% funded by the EU- is a useful vessel with some interesting hull apertures for fitting /removing equipment fits. My only comment is that the freeboard is quite high, which may make her lively at sea. There was stuff on facebook some time ago showing an IAC team training AFM in use of helicopters including on ships-after all they were/are experts!!

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      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
        There was stuff on facebook some time ago showing an IAC team training AFM in use of helicopters including on ships-after all they were/are experts!!
        They were assisting the Maltese in training up on the AW139 - they had recently received the type.

        Given that the Air Corps have had the AW139 in service since 2006, yeah I think they would be deemed somewhat expert in operations with that particular helicopter e.g. fast roping/carrying underslung loads/fire fighting/winching, since they they train for and do those roles operationally.

        The Irish Mobile Training Team delivered training for the Air Wing�s Helicopter Instructor aircrews on the various operational aspects such as winching, fast roping and operating with Under slung loads. The team also provided a coursework for a selection of ground personnel preparing adhoc Helicopter landing Sites, Marshalling of Helicopters and the managing of Under slung loads. The ground skill sets were then amalgamated in an exercise with the instructions given to the aircrew. The training also focused on the winching capabilities of the AW139 where the instructors from Rescue section conducted deployment and recovery practices both on land and at sea. These practices included single winching, double winching and stretcher lifts with the culmination of this training taking place at sea in conjunction with the Maritime Squadron�s P61. Troop insertion techniques were also practiced on land and at sea by the conduct of fast roping procedures by members of C Coy 1 Regt and Special Operations Unit.

        The Commander Armed Forces of Malta, Brigadier Jeffrey Curmi also met the Irish Air Corps Mobile Training Team at Air Wing, and whilst thanking them for their effort, support and professionalism, also augured for further strengthening of this relationship between the Maltese and Irish forces.
        No ship landings took place.

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        • Originally posted by pym View Post
          They were assisting the Maltese in training up on the AW139 - they had recently received the type.

          Given that the Air Corps have had the AW139 in service since 2006, yeah I think they would be deemed somewhat expert in operations with that particular helicopter e.g. fast roping/carrying underslung loads/fire fighting/winching, since they they train for and do those roles operationally.



          No ship landings took place.
          I accept that. There are many incidences of AW 139's landing on USN ships and I presume it is the AFM intention to do so on the new P71. I still think we should be looking to have the Navy do the same by creating a Naval Air unit with a main station at say Cork Airport, to allow for training and deployment.
          We should train our own dual purpose personnel in all aspects of Rotary aircraft , say with the BF overseas training department. Attachment to a ship wouldn't be possible until the MRV comes on stream, however deck landings could be practiced on suitable shore based structures or on P31, after all the additional obstructions have been redacted.

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          • One of the ship designs offered to Malta was a modified LE Niamh, also with an AW-139 capable helideck.

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            • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
              One of the ship designs offered to Malta was a modified LE Niamh, also with an AW-139 capable helideck.

              why not, provided that the flight deck would be strong enough to prevent it being pierced by a heavy landing or crash. In any event, in fleet , and co-op missions additional decks are a major asset for many reasons. we should go for it on a couple of ships plus P31.

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              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                why not, provided that the flight deck would be strong enough to prevent it being pierced by a heavy landing or crash. In any event, in fleet , and co-op missions additional decks are a major asset for many reasons. we should go for it on a couple of ships plus P31.
                As a matter for examination we need to look at the most comfortable fit of helicopter for ships in general. Other than an MRV the AW139 would be a tight fit on smaller vessels, with a rotor diameter of 45ft 3.2inches compared to 39ft 2 inches for the Dauphin. The most prominent choice at the moment is the Airbus/Eurocopter, designed for Lynx replacement, the AW159 with rotor diameter of 42 feet . Ships without hangers or with retractable hangers would have no problem. P31's deck has room to go aftwards a few feet. The AW159 would be compatible with future British Forces training and operational developments.

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                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  As a matter for examination we need to look at the most comfortable fit of helicopter for ships in general. Other than an MRV the AW139 would be a tight fit on smaller vessels, with a rotor diameter of 45ft 3.2inches compared to 39ft 2 inches for the Dauphin. The most prominent choice at the moment is the Airbus/Eurocopter, designed for Lynx replacement, the AW159 with rotor diameter of 42 feet . Ships without hangers or with retractable hangers would have no problem. P31's deck has room to go aftwards a few feet. The AW159 would be compatible with future British Forces training and operational developments.
                  The P50 design is based upon the Mauritian Vigilant design which is equipped for helicopter operations.
                  The New Zealand Protector class (Otago class) is a Vard 7-085 design also equipped for heicopter operations.

                  However each was designed and built for this type of operation, it would not be easy to retrofit such a capability into the P50/60 vessels. With the P31 we were ahead of most nations with regard to OPV design but because we did not make it work we have gone backward with design. Almost all modern OPV designs above 1500t have a helicopter capability, if the rest of the world can make it work why can't we. No one can say that the seas around our shores are any worse that the RNZN will encounter in the SOuthern Ocean.

                  As for size, in view of multi-national operations if we are to get vessels with helicopter capability thenit should be of the 11t class. This is becoming the standard for western nations even if they embark something smaller.

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                  • Welding a flat top to the stern of the P60 does not a helideck make. Maybe good enough for a UAV, but as ancientmariner can probably explain better, you need to add a helipad to a ship from design stage, not after it is built.
                    The Otago class has had many operational issues since they entered into service. One area where they have continued to struggle is heliops. Like us they chose to allow the NZ Air Force operate the maritime aircraft(though flown by Navy Crew). Trials were concluded in 2012 with the Seasprite, but you'll struggle to find any evidence that the type is found on the ship during normal operations, let alone in the southern oceans. Only five aircraft were available, one being used for training, two in maintenance at any one time. The remainder were more often found aboard the Frigates Te Kaha and Te Mana, or on the much larger more forgiving stable helideck of HMNZS Canterbury. Meanwhile the 5 SH2-G(NZ) were retired in 2016, and the 8 new SH2-G(I) first flew in 2014.
                    Without frequent operations with helicopters, the helidecks become an ornament, and crew do not gain experience.

                    On half the occasions NZ Customs asked the Navy for help, it was told it couldn't because aircraft and ships were being maintained, repaired or replaced.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                    • [QUOTE=na grohmití;465562]Welding a flat top to the stern of the P60 does not a helideck make. Maybe good enough for a UAV, but as ancientmariner can probably explain better, you need to add a helipad to a ship from design stage, not after it is built.

                      The preference is as you outlined but that is not to say that a helipad could not be added providing that the naval architects could fit in the weights. Plating for a steel deck about 1/2 inch thick by 42 ft wide and 50 ft long is just short of 20 tons, plus all foundations and attachments could add 30 tons to the ship.
                      Suggestions that 11 ton helicopters are normal for smaller ships has to be way off the mark as both the Lynx at 5 tonnes and the AW 159 at 6 tonne are the current size for frigate type ships.
                      We must not paint ourselves into a corner by being too biblical with regulation. I noted that USN destroyers in the Mediterranean allowed Cypriot and Polish AW 139's land on board and duly depart. Everytime we stand still, or change direction, we lose ground, and become something else.

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                      • I don't think we should limit ourselves with size in this matter. While yes it would be nice to be able to accomodate a 5 tonne heli on an OPV, I would prefer to go down the RN route, initially with the Castle class, seen again with the Batch 2 River class, having a helideck large enough to accomodate a Sea King, or Merlin size helicopter. It also gives your Lynx/AW159 more room to manouver.

                        But, looking at the internal layout of the P60 class a conversion like this is unlikely, too much alteration required and we are looking at these vessels in service for at least the next 30 years. Maybe a mid life upgrade could see it.

                        The priority for now though is to get a P31 replacement built with a usable large helideck so the NS can relearn the skills they had for a short period in the 1980s and 1990s. Safe to say there is nobody currently serving who was involved in Heli ops aboard P31. Maybe the FOCNS, but it depends on how much time he, as an engineering officer spent above deck. We may be reluctant to accept it, but it is probably 18 years since a Dauphin landed on P31. The O/Sea on that day may be a PO or CPO now, given the wastage the NS suffered during the years since, assuming they are still serving and have not retired from the NS. The few FDOs we had have all moved on to better things.
                        Lets go back to France again, who are now moving towards the NH90 aboard its frigate sized vessels. Lets learn from them. They operate in the same sort of Atlantic as we do. Maybe once we have the skills again, and more importantly we have access to navalised helicopters, maybe then we can look at incorporating a flight deck on an OPV.
                        Last edited by na grohmiti; 20 January 2019, 21:31.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                        • The Lynx was a great helicopter in its day however the cuurent round of replacement has seen most European Navies replace them either with the NH-90 or MH-60 aircraft.

                          Denmark: Lynx replaced by MH60R
                          Germany: Lynx replaced by NH-90
                          France: Lynx replaced by NH-90
                          Netherland: Lynx replaced by NH-90
                          Norway: Lynx replaced by NH-90
                          UK: Lynx replaced by AW159

                          The RN currently is the only European navy to replace he Lynx with the AW159. Therefore the P31 replacement/MRV should be able to at least have a modern 11t helicopter land on it.

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                          • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            I don't think we should limit ourselves with size in this matter. While yes it would be nice to be able to accomodate a 5 tonne heli on an OPV, I would prefer to go down the RN route, initially with the Castle class, seen again with the Batch 2 River class, having a helideck large enough to accomodate a Sea King, or Merlin size helicopter. It also gives your Lynx/AW159 more room to manouver.

                            But, looking at the internal layout of the P60 class a conversion like this is unlikely, too much alteration required and we are looking at these vessels in service for at least the next 30 years. Maybe a mid life upgrade could see it.

                            The priority for now though is to get a P31 replacement built with a usable large helideck so the NS can relearn the skills they had for a short period in the 1980s and 1990s. Safe to say there is nobody currently serving who was involved in Heli ops aboard P31. Maybe the FOCNS, but it depends on how much time he, as an engineering officer spent above deck. We may be reluctant to accept it, but it is probably 18 years since a Dauphin landed on P31. The O/Sea on that day may be a PO or CPO now, given the wastage the NS suffered during the years since, assuming they are still serving and have not retired from the NS. The few FDOs we had have all moved on to better things.
                            Lets go back to France again, who are now moving towards the NH90 aboard its frigate sized vessels. Lets learn from them. They operate in the same sort of Atlantic as we do. Maybe once we have the skills again, and more importantly we have access to navalised helicopters, maybe then we can look at incorporating a flight deck on an OPV.
                            Has the original FDO hung up his ping pong bats and white overalls as well .
                            Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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                            • Originally posted by Laners View Post
                              Has the original FDO hung up his ping pong bats and white overalls as well .
                              Must have by now. The decks if added to existing ships are only for tactical visits , operational flexibility, and would not require internal alterations. Training required would be minimal. The NH90 is a full transport heli overlaid with ASuW and AS roles, including dipping, torpedo launching, missile launching. We do not at this time need to gear up for that role. Perhaps the MRV flight deck will land all helicopter types to maximise transport and evacuation roles. The NH90 with rotors spinning needs a larger flight deck than we can guarantee.

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                              • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                The Otago class has had many operational issues since they entered into service. One area where they have continued to struggle is heliops.
                                The main problem was the ice belt which created stability issues in the Southern Ocean during high sea states. With 5 airframes there were never enough Sea Sprites to allocate one to an OPV - in fact when the Sprites were ordered in 1997 OPV's were not on the agenda. As you indicated five is enough only for two vessels concurrently - a deployed Anzac in which an ASuW/ASW rotary is a key mission enabler of the vessel and the Canterbury in which an onboard rotary is a key enabler in amphibious / HADR ops. With now 8 Sprites there is the capacity to maintain a 3rd deployed Sprite for taskings on another vessel.

                                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                Like us they chose to allow the NZ Air Force operate the maritime aircraft (though flown by Navy Crew).
                                6 Sqd personnel are predominantly Navy these days especially when deployed upon a vessel. The RNZAF just owns the aircraft, trains the crew and depot maintains them, signing them over to JFNZ Maritime Commander who then vests command of the helicopter and personnel to the ships CO when he heads to sea.

                                The Navy, in fact the NZDF is too small to duplicate such a thing as complex and costly as an Air Fleet Arm as a separate entity. We have been doing this since 1966 and hand on heart how we have it now is the best way to do it for small forces. Attitude is the key determinant and with the setting up of JFNZ in 2001 all the stupid inter service rivalries of old are way less pronounced.

                                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                Trials were concluded in 2012 with the Seasprite, but you'll struggle to find any evidence that the type is found on the ship during normal operations, let alone in the southern oceans.
                                It has only been in the last 2 years that it has been possible due to those extra numbers. The Sprites and OPV's are fine for offshore island resupply and have been used that way, but due to the limitations of vessel size and sea states it is a sensible no go zone in our southern waters for flight operations when conducting patrols. Besides for OPV's in fisheries protection and customs roles RPAS assets like the S-100 are far more efficient.

                                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                Without frequent operations with helicopters, the helidecks become an ornament, and crew do not gain experience.
                                Though on the plus aide a great exercise area though and fine for other operators to vertrep or conduct lilypad visits. Equally in poorer weather the hangar is an equally useful space.

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