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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    The ban is untill end 2010.

    Lads, the cuts & increases taxes in the April 09 budget were a drop in the ocean - the Government has put it on paper that the cuts & increases tax are to massively increase (approx double in Jan 2010) in the next 2 budgets.
    True, but the world is not going to end, is it.

    Firstly they have a navy that needs ships, as three of their old ones are knackered. No point in paying these men if they're not going to provide equipment to let them do their job.

    Secondly, the DF is without question one of the more efficent services in the public sector.

    Thirdly, sales of irish government bonds is actually going quite well, and irish tax rates abd debt were actually very low before things happened.

    Fourthly, European pressure. With the rest of Europe providing for its own, and our defence, there is pressure on the government to start contributing to defence.

    Comment


    • Goldie , I say the navy will shrink as the age of the present fleet is older than most of the crew, As the new ships come on line the older ones will be sold on.
      How long do you think the CPV ,HPVand PV should remain in service and they make more then three ships.
      I still think the service will shrink in size, We could see the day again were we have a number of vessels confined to the base unfit for sea but still on paper have an eight ship navy ,Time will tell .

      Comment


      • Just wondering, what will the manning requirements of the new ships be, compared to the ones they're replacing. Seems to be a lot of automation in ships these days, so is there scope for smaller crews?

        Comment


        • Ah come on. That would be logic!
          "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ZULU View Post
            Ah come on. That would be logic!

            Oops! You're right, what was I thinking

            Comment


            • Originally posted by spud68 View Post
              Goldie , I say the navy will shrink as the age of the present fleet is older than most of the crew, As the new ships come on line the older ones will be sold on.
              How long do you think the CPV ,HPVand PV should remain in service and they make more then three ships.
              I still think the service will shrink in size, We could see the day again were we have a number of vessels confined to the base unfit for sea but still on paper have an eight ship navy ,Time will tell .
              I'm not going to bother answering your question, because I know I have covered this hundreds of times before, if not in this thread alone, in many others.

              USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION.



              I must go off to the supermarket and stock up on tinned food as judging by the mentality of many on this site, the end is nigh.


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

              Comment


              • Thats fine but my statement still stands I dont think the goverment is going to replace the CPV,PV &HPV with a one for one replacement program whatever the time frame for decomissioning the vessels.


                Dont forget the tin opener.

                Comment


                • Well there are two OPV that they're negotiating a contract on as we speak, once that's done, they'll start on the EPV, which is replacement for the three P-21.

                  There is an option for a further EPV, which should see the replacement of Eithne.

                  There is another option for an OPV and the chance that they'll replace the CPV with one ship, but then again, they might add slightly to the NS.

                  The funny thing about the moment, is that this is the first real recession this country has ever faced, and we all think its back to the bad old days, its not.

                  Comment


                  • The P20s and P31 were build at a time when the country was far worse off.


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • Government policy was a 8 ship navy, a lot of things have changed though!

                      Worse is to come goldie!

                      Comment


                      • Dev


                        What exactly do you mean by worse is to come.

                        Are they going to abolish the defence forces.

                        Are they going to close down the entire public sector.

                        Are they going to sack all the sailors and sell haulbowline as site for a chemical plant?

                        Sell off Rosin and Niamh?

                        Has it occured to anybody that the reason they're getting the contracts out of the way for the opv before turning to the EPV might be that the department has a limited amount of people with the experience necessary to negotiate a deal of this complexity.

                        When things were really bad in the late 1980s the navy had seven ships, now that the economy has transformed beyond all recognition, they'll harldy bring it much lower.

                        Goldie suggests using the search function, and if you do you'll see that three or four years ago people where arguing that we needed frigates, surface to surface missiles, etc for the navy. Now we feel that we can't afford some OPV, and the navy will be reduced in size.

                        Anybody read the financial papers? Did you see that there was an oil field found off the west of Ireland earlier this month, and that its estimated that there are ten billion barrells of Oil off our coast and lots of gas. How are we going to defend that without a navy, use the army reserve.

                        Now i for one am not a supporter of the present government, but things are not going back to the late 1980s early 1990s in the country. There are problems in the irish economy, at the same time there are also problems in every economy, Anglo Irish is a mess, but most other developed countires are having problems, from Bear Sterns, Lehamn Brothers and Fannie Mae in the US to RBS and Northern Rock in the UK to name but a few.

                        Secondly, take away building, which was massively inflated anyway, and the rest of the economy is still performing quite well, IT is still strong for example, the chemical industry is going well, and manufacturing is still relatively strong. .

                        i think part of the problem is that this is the first real recession we've ever had and nobody knows how to deal with it. Those who remember how bad the late 1980s might lik to considerthat we weren't in recession then, the country was just poor, and more importatly, the fall in the size of the economy is due to the fact tha we calculate our GDP differetly from other nations.

                        Irelad has changed massively, and with the American and British recessions coming to an end, this is not the time to panic. But the immense, and possibly overrated exuberance of the celtic tiger years seem to have been replaced by an extreme pessimism that is not really justified.

                        They'll replace the fleet over the next ten years, it mightn't expand, but it will remain relatively stable, and might gain one or two ships.
                        Last edited by paul g; 18 June 2009, 12:45.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                          Dev


                          What exactly do you mean by worse is to come.

                          Are they going to abolish the defence forces.

                          Are they going to close down the entire public sector.

                          Are they going to sack all the sailors and sell haulbowline as site for a chemical plant?

                          Sell off Rosin and Niamh?

                          Has it occured to anybody that the reason they're getting the contracts out of the way for the opv before turning to the EPV might be that the department has a limited amount of people with the experience necessary to negotiate a deal of this complexity.

                          When things were really bad in the late 1980s the navy had seven ships, now that the economy has transformed beyond all recognition, they'll harldy bring it much lower.

                          Goldie suggests using the search function, and if you do you'll see that three or four years ago people where arguing that we needed frigates, surface to surface missiles, etc for the navy. Now we feel that we can't afford some OPV, and the navy will be reduced in size.

                          Anybody read the financial papers? Did you see that there was an oil field found off the west of Ireland earlier this month, and that its estimated that there are ten billion barrells of Oil off our coast and lots of gas. How are we going to defend that without a navy, use the army reserve.

                          Now i for one am not a supporter of the present government, but things are not going back to the late 1980s early 1990s in the country. There are problems in the irish economy, at the same time there are also problems in every economy, Anglo Irish is a mess, but most other developed countires are having problems, from Bear Sterns, Lehamn Brothers and Fannie Mae in the US to RBS and Northern Rock in the UK to name but a few.

                          Secondly, take away building, which was massively inflated anyway, and the rest of the economy is still performing quite well, IT is still strong for example, the chemical industry is going well, and manufacturing is still relatively strong. .

                          i think part of the problem is that this is the first real recession we've ever had and nobody knows how to deal with it. Those who remember how bad the late 1980s might lik to considerthat we weren't in recession then, the country was just poor, and more importatly, the fall in the size of the economy is due to the fact tha we calculate our GDP differetly from other nations.

                          Irelad has changed massively, and with the American and British recessions coming to an end, this is not the time to panic. But the immense, and possibly overrated exuberance of the celtic tiger years seem to have been replaced by an extreme pessimism that is not really justified.

                          They'll replace the fleet over the next ten years, it mightn't expand, but it will remain relatively stable, and might gain one or two ships.
                          I'm not suggesting for one moment that the NS should see anything except expansion, but the reality is that cost is a major (and probably the deciding factor).

                          The April 09 budget was supposed to bring in the following (increases since the Dec 08 budget):
                          Tax: €1.8 billion increase
                          Expenditure: € 1.4 billion in cuts

                          This budget also gave projections for 2010 & 2011 (this figures are on top of the above):
                          2010:
                          Tax: €2.5 billion increase
                          Expenditure: € 2.25 billion in cuts

                          2011:
                          Tax: € 2.1 billion increase
                          Expenditure: € 2.5 billion in cuts

                          Therefore between April 2009 & the end of 2011, the Government expects the following (based on April 09 projections):

                          Tax: € 6.4 billion increase
                          Expenditure: € 6.15 billion in cuts

                          Look at the uproar the relative small cuts this year caused. The cuts will be nearly doubled next year (if projections are true).

                          To expect the DF (all branches) not to be effected is sticking your head in the sand.

                          Comment


                          • The answer in the 80s was??

                            Borrow & tax people at 41%

                            While Charley was doing...... (and we are still paying for the fallout)

                            There are now limits (due to EU) on amount we can borrow without being penalised.

                            Comment


                            • Thank you Paul G. My marriage Proposal will follow by Private Message..

                              Dev your estimation on how bad the finances are do not give the full picture. Capital Expenditure is always going to be a priority to this government and they have the almost absolute support of the Opposition in this. What we get in from the taxpayer will always only be a small proportion of what we spend. Europe criticised us when this was not the case, and we were spending less than we earnt.(Mc Greedy told them to mind their own beeswax).

                              Many people better qualified than us have written long reports on how we require a larger fleet, if not just larger ships to patrol and protect the resources which of course don't just belong to us, as our European neighbours also have a stake in the exploration.


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • If you look at the defence forces, and where cuts are to come the NS is hardly a drain on the nations resources, far from it.

                                Secondly, the DF is one of the better government departments when it comes to spending money, compared to others it has actually saved money over the years and is quite lean. Compared to justice, health, social welfare, etc .

                                Where there is fat to be cut in the DF its in the number of barracks, most of whom are on quite valuable sites that are more suited to an army of occupation then a defence force (then again, who built them) and are a drain on resources, the large number of theoretical units in the army ( three brigades, although really only enough men for one) and the corresponding large number of senior managers needed, along with the army reserve, which is out of porportion to the size of reserves in the rest of Europe and is of little or no real military value.

                                They might buy three OPV's initially, the two in the contract, and one option, and then look to the EPV as an eithne replacement, but again, despite what they say about lisbon the state is goig to get more heavily involved in overseas operations, and the chief of staff has argured that the EPV will be a corner stone of the defence forces expansion i the next decade).


                                With oil prices likely to remain at their present prices, the oil fields off our coasts are becoming economically viable, and as such there is a need for the navy to patrol these waters. As there is to protect our fishing stocks.

                                But its not the late 1980's early 1990's, as my Italian wife ( Sorry Goldie) points out you can now buy more than three types of Ice cream and Cheese in Dublin.
                                Last edited by paul g; 18 June 2009, 18:43.

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