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  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by carrington View Post
    The White paper covers the period 2000-2010. Like any plan, its relevance decreases as time goes by. In any event, planning should now be commencing for the next White Paper, due in a couple of years
    There is no guarantees that there will ever be another white paper, so far this one is a one-off
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
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  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin_ie View Post
    So troops deploying overseas will have experience in operating in helis and will be able to transfer that knowledge to the area the are to operate in which may have air support from UN helis??
    80million euro so that troops going overseas know how to climb in and out of a 'chopper - that of course will be a completely different layout - how to do up a seat belt and to secure floppy hats, maps and anything else that might get picked up into the rotors?

    someone saw you lot coming...

  3. #353
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    bring your own....

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin_ie View Post
    So troops deploying overseas will have experience in operating in helis and will be able to transfer that knowledge to the area the are to operate in which may have air support from UN helis??

    But if they need air support why don't they bring their own, now that we have them?

  4. #354
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    no new White Paper?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    There is no guarantees that there will ever be another white paper, so far this one is a one-off
    It would make sense to produce another for the next decade.... Has there been any decision/announcement either way?

  5. #355
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carrington View Post
    It would make sense
    You obviously don't have much experience with the Defence Forces.

  6. #356
    Philomath Itchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carrington View Post
    But if they need air support why don't they bring their own, now that we have them?
    Well why not? The UN pay for them and majority of costs if the finance is what your worried about.
    Sex - Breakfast of Champions!

  7. #357
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Firstly it is the Irish Air Corps not "Army Air Corps".

    There is more to working with helicopter training than the seat belt etc.

    In order to have two helicopters operational at all times, at least 3 if not 4 are required, as for every hour they spend in the air they will have to undergo around 2.5 to 3 hours maintainance (depending on the type of aircraft).

    You seem to forget the DF is operational at home as well as overseas.

  8. #358
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    EC135
    100hrs flying=2 hours maintenance
    AB139
    25 hours flying=3 hours maintenance
    300hrs flying=1 weeks maintenance.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  9. #359
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Maintenance hours are worked out on the basis of man hours, the 50 hour check on AB139 takes 4 people 5 hours to complete.

    The maintenance hours are also averaged out of the year AFAIK. The more intensively an helicopter is flown the more maintenance is required.

    The 50 hour check on the AB139 takes 4 people a day, assuming a 7 hour working day thats 28 hours of maintenance.

    Also don't forget the pre and post flight checks which may take 2 people 30 minutes every time the aircraft takes off and lands.

    Then as the aircraft get older...

  10. #360
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    why not indeed?

    On the basis of what's been said, there doesn't seem to be any major military problem about deploying say three helicopters overseas - two to be available for ops. while one is maintained/repaired - together with the appropriate numbers of flight crew, maintenance personnel, and ops. and admin. staff (total of 20 - 30 personnel?).

  11. #361
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    and parts....and tools.....


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  12. #362
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    IMHO if the new helis are ever deyloyed abroad, it probably wont be for a very long time. This is the first time since the puma that the Air corps have a true tactical transport capability, its going to be a while before things are perfected.
    Im Ron Burgendy??

  13. #363
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    conversion..

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyrdf View Post
    IMHO if the new helis are ever deyloyed abroad, it probably wont be for a very long time. This is the first time since the puma that the Air corps have a true tactical transport capability, its going to be a while before things are perfected.
    How long do you think it will take? Surely a few months would be enough for training and familiarisation with the new machines?

  14. #364
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If the AC was to deploy 3 helicopters overseas, how would the pilots and troops be trained when before the troops were deployed?

  15. #365
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carrington View Post
    How long do you think it will take? Surely a few months would be enough for training and familiarisation with the new machines?
    The AC has so far only received two of the six helicopters, so sending any overseas until all six are delivered is unthinkable. Even when all six are delivered it would be very difficult to justify splitting such a small fleet - you can't send enough overseas to be effective, and if you did whatever number of helis remain would not be sufficient to carry out the tasks assigned to them.

    These helis are a big step forward for the AC, they cannot be rushed into overseas service like you are suggesting.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  16. #366
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    what could have been...

    Quote Originally Posted by FMolloy View Post
    The AC has so far only received two of the six helicopters, so sending any overseas until all six are delivered is unthinkable. Even when all six are delivered it would be very difficult to justify splitting such a small fleet - you can't send enough overseas to be effective, and if you did whatever number of helis remain would not be sufficient to carry out the tasks assigned to them.

    These helis are a big step forward for the AC, they cannot be rushed into overseas service like you are suggesting.

    The Belgian Navy had just three Alouette IIIs, one of which was deployed to Somalia for service with the UN...


  17. #367
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    In contrast to Belgium where all three branches of their armed forces have helis, only the Air Corp operates aircraft within the Irish DF. Whereas the loss of that AIII wouldn't have inconvenienced the Belgians that much, such a loss to a small fleet like the AC's would be a more serious issue.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  18. #368
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    Im not waltering, but would there ever be the possibilty of increasing the number of AW139s beyond the 6?Maybe have a fleet that is capable of giving the lads overseas in-house air support...
    Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

  19. #369
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
    Im not waltering, but would there ever be the possibilty of increasing the number of AW139s beyond the 6?Maybe have a fleet that is capable of giving the lads overseas in-house air support...
    There's always the possibility, remember the AIII's weren't all bought at the same time.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  20. #370
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    more helicopters

    Quote Originally Posted by FMolloy View Post
    The AC has so far only received two of the six helicopters, so sending any overseas until all six are delivered is unthinkable. Even when all six are delivered it would be very difficult to justify splitting such a small fleet - you can't send enough overseas to be effective, and if you did whatever number of helis remain would not be sufficient to carry out the tasks assigned to them.

    These helis are a big step forward for the AC, they cannot be rushed into overseas service like you are suggesting.

    Perhaps the Air Corps would have been better off spending the €80 million, or at least some of it, on larger numbers of smaller, cheaper helicopters? They could have bought 40 or 50 EC-120s, for example, plenty for deployment overseas, and even to provide organic aviation units at brigade level.

  21. #371
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    To do what? You won't fit a section of fully equipped troops in the back of a 120. You'll be lucky to fit them in the door.
    Its a bit excessive if its only purpose is to shuttle the Brass about.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  22. #372
    Some dodgy geezer Scorpy's Avatar
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    40 or 50 helis? Where would they put them? Who would fly them all? As for 120s, you could hang them all on the Dublin city Chrismas tree for all the good they would do!

  23. #373
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    more or better?

    The discussion earlier had been about how few helicopters the Air Corps has, so few that they couldn't deploy any overseas.

    The point I was trying to make is that given the money that was spent, they could have given a higher priority to numbers rather than other factors. The EC 120 is a basic helicopter - single-engine, VFR, 5-seater - but it could probably do a lot of the jobs that the EC 135 or AW139 will end up doing. I'm not necessarily advocating this particular machine - although it is used by US Customs and Border Patrol and the Spanish military - but you could get at least six of them for the price of an AW139.



    There will always be a trade-off between quantity and quality, a choice between a smaller number of more capable aircraft or a larger number of less capable ones.

  24. #374
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    what, where, who...


    What would they do?


    normal military light utility helicopter duties: command, communications and liaison, observation and reconnaissance, casevac, light transport, battlefield resupply, training…. (Like the Alouette III, Gazelle, Westland Scout, OH-6, OH-58…. When 2 Para were assaulting Goose Green in the Falklands, they were supported by two Scouts and two Gazelles that brought up ammunition and flew back with casualties.)


    Where would they go?

    (suggestion)
    6 each to overseas, training, brigades (3), maintenance
    (6x6 = 36, still leaves a couple for MATS)


    Who would fly them?


    Same pilots who fly current types… plus NCO pilots?

  25. #375
    squigs
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    There would probably be little public objection to the spending aswell because who would object to the best possible equipment for our soldiers serving abroad??

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