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  1. #101
    Private 3* Saracen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym
    Looks like AW held up their end of the bargain on the time of delivery, let's hope the two on option are ordered before the offer runs out.
    Whats the point when the fly boys won't use them to the full extent of their specification. They won't fly them at night (even without NVG which they have) and the medium choppers won't carry underslung loads unless they're under 300kg. You might as well carry that in the cabin of the aircraft. I can tell you I'm not too impressed with them sic(AC).
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends

  2. #102
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Why won't they carry more than 300kg underslung?

  3. #103
    Private 3* Saracen's Avatar
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    Its "unsafe" because they haven't the necessary experience or training despite the RAF running training courses in Baldonnel. The new AW's were bought for the lift capability, they can carry a 105 underslung, well within limits. It's embarrassing watching civvies using aircraft to their potential. Irish Lights pilots carry underslung loads to the lighthouses of over 500kgs on smaller choppers and the SAR boys operate in all weather/night etc. aren't the civvies supposed to be looking at the AC and think "I'd love to be able to do that" instead of the other way round?
    TBH I don't blame the aircrews. Operational parameters come from the top but ever since the tragedy of the Dauphin in Wexford they've stepped too far back into the comfort zone. They have ceased to be an effective support corps for operational units of the army. Don't get me wrong, they do a hell of a lot of good work but there civvies who doing it just as good.
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends

  4. #104
    Vmax
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    Quote Originally Posted by client
    "but what's with the yellow outlines on the windows?"

    I think this was only for production and should not be on machines when delivered.
    The orange marking around the windows are there to identify the emergency exits and will be permanent as I understand it. The orange frisbee type object to the rear of the heli is an Emergency Locator Transmitter.

  5. #105
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    Its "unsafe" because they haven't the necessary experience or training despite the RAF running training courses in Baldonnel. The new AW's were bought for the lift capability, they can carry a 105 underslung, well within limits. It's embarrassing watching civvies using aircraft to their potential. Irish Lights pilots carry underslung loads to the lighthouses of over 500kgs on smaller choppers and the SAR boys operate in all weather/night etc. aren't the civvies supposed to be looking at the AC and think "I'd love to be able to do that" instead of the other way round?
    Do you want to give the AC a chance to actually use the helis before dissing them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    Don't get me wrong, they do a hell of a lot of good work but there civvies who doing it just as good.
    What civvies are doing army co-op?
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  6. #106
    Private 3* Saracen's Avatar
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    If you read the post you'll see what i mean about the civvies. As for the helis, they have been here for about 6 months. As for heli ops, ask the wing, artillery and infantry just how much assistance they get from the fly boys. You'll find a common thread of thought about the AC. Like I said top down, they're just grunts at the end of the day, they do what they're told.
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends

  7. #107
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    If you read the post you'll see what i mean about the civvies.
    No I don't see what load the Irish lights heli is lifting has to do with the price of cabbage. It might be relevent if the AC were actually operating the new helis, but they're not so there's no way of comparing one to the other.

    You've said that the AC won't be flying at night & won't be carrying anything over 300kg, where are you getting this info from? No one else, including the AC contributors to this board, has mentioned this before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    As for the helis, they have been here for about 6 months.
    What in the name of God are you talking about? The AB139's are only being delivered now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    As for heli ops, ask the wing, artillery and infantry just how much assistance they get from the fly boys.
    With the exception of artillery (the AC only had one heli capable of helping the artillery & even then only briefly) they've been getting a lot more since SAR went civillian, and this will be increased with the new arrivals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    You'll find a common thread of thought about the AC. Like I said top down, they're just grunts at the end of the day, they do what they're told.
    Do you want to rephrase that so it makes sense?
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  8. #108
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vmax
    The orange marking around the windows are there to identify the emergency exits and will be permanent as I understand it. The orange frisbee type object to the rear of the heli is an Emergency Locator Transmitter.
    thought so, thank's VMAX
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  9. #109
    Intelligence Officer The Blue Max's Avatar
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    Its was quoted in the indo article about "the new AW139 that has capabaility to be armed with Two x FN GPMG Machine Gunsaswell as other weapons"

    Does anybody what other types of weapons the aircraft are able/wired to carry?

    Are refering like of 12.7mm HMG Gun Pods or rocket pods etc??
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    Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

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  10. #110
    Private 3* Saracen's Avatar
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    F Molloy, firstly, the purpose of the post was to highlight the growing frustration with some aspects of the Air Corp, not to piss people off. I apologise for that.

    Second, I'm sorry for not being clearer in my posts but I'm working and can only view the site for five or ten minutes at time so I'm rushing.

    Flight operation parameters are determined by senior officers so I'm not ragging on the pilots.

    Comparing civvies is valid because they conduct the flight operations with underslung loads and night time flights.
    .
    Before delivery of any aircraft, personnel are sent on conversion/familarisation courses.

    The RAF were in Baldonnel two months ago running a training course on underslung loads. After the training was completed the AC were asked to do some runs with underslung loads. The most they would fly with was 300kg in which case they were told don't bother.

    In a recent exercise the AC were asked would they do a night time extraction involving simulated medivac and hostage rescue. The answer was no.

    Ask the ack ack boys what they think of the target towing provided by the AC. I hear its so bad they're looking at a civilian contractor.

    Now I could go on but I won't. I know the AC perform a hell of a lot of work that is generally unseen (and unappreciated) but in the main are seen as been generally unco-operative when it comes to military ops/exercises.

    I speak from personal experience. I hope that answers your questions.
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends

  11. #111
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen

    The RAF were in Baldonnel two months ago running a training course on underslung loads. After the training was completed the AC were asked to do some runs with underslung loads. The most they would fly with was 300kg in which case they were told don't bother.
    The most any of the air corps aircraft can carry underslung, prior to the arrival of the AW139, is 500kg(with the EC135). 300kg, underslung from a new aircraft whose max underslung is 500kg in my opinion is pretty reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    In a recent exercise the AC were asked would they do a night time extraction involving simulated medivac and hostage rescue. The answer was no.
    Had they trained for a night extraction and hostage rescue, or was it just landed on their lap at the beginning of the ex? Night flying is a capability that takes a lot of training. It is only this year that I have heard of AC crews participating in training for "combat" night flying. Its something you don't want to risk a nearly new aircraft on, unless you have the crew fully trained. Allouettes are not capable of flying at Night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    Ask the ack ack boys what they think of the target towing provided by the AC. I hear its so bad they're looking at a civilian contractor.
    This is not the Air Corps fault. This is the fault of the aircraft. The cessna is completely unsuitable for the job. Being based in Baldonnell doesn't help either. The Gear for hauling the drogue causes serious wear and tear on the airframe, and all other equipment must be stripped out beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen
    Now I could go on but I won't. I know the AC perform a hell of a lot of work that is generally unseen (and unappreciated) but in the main are seen as been generally unco-operative when it comes to military ops/exercises.

    I speak from personal experience. I hope that answers your questions.
    I have lost count of the number of RDF courses that I have seen photos from in recent times that didnt have Air Corps helis teaching troops about heliops. Given the reluctance of the PDF for the most part to allow the RDF train in their shiney new equipment, the Air Corps have been fantastic in making aircraft available to train on. Perhaps your experience is dated?

  12. #112
    Private 3* Saracen's Avatar
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    Fair point, but I doubt that two months is dated.

    The EC-135 MTOW "notional" external load is 1500kg. 20% is a very low lift factor.

    The Night Ex in question, as I wasn't the SO3 involved so I don't know what tasking was given to the AC, I just know that there was a lot of unhappy bunnies when the answer came back.

    I appreciate Night flying requires a lot of training. The AC is a military organisation.

    As for other units experience with the PDF/AC, I can't comment. I can only make the points based on my experiences this year.
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends

  13. #113
    Vmax
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    Give them time and i'm sure they will provide the service required of them.These type of operations are quite complex in nature, something the aer corp probobly hasn't done for some time, I'm sure some crew members are still getting use to their new heli's.You have to learn to walk before you can run.

  14. #114
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    The skills being asked of the AC's helicopter pilots cannot just appear overnight, they've got to get used to the new aircraft before they can use them to their full potential. AC pilots want this as much as anyone, have a look for recent posts from Scorpy & this is obvious.

    Like I said, give them a chance before dissing them.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  15. #115
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    What is the maximum load that can be slung under an AB139/AW139?

  16. #116
    Private 3* Saracen's Avatar
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    MTOW is 2778kg but as any pilot will tell you they will never be close to that.
    AW 139 should be capable of lifting the 105mm light artillery gun, 1858kg, plus crew and ammo.
    I believe this was one of the criteria in selecting this type of helicopter.
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends

  17. #117
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The criteria (not like they were buried under 2 years of posts or anything)

    22. External Load Lifting Equipment

    The helicopter must be capable of being fitted with an external load lifting system and should be capable of lifting a minimum external load of 1000 kgs. Such an external load lifting system must be part of the tendered helicopter package. Weights of fixed provisions required for this system must be provided in the tender response.

    http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/b...75&postcount=3

  18. #118
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    MTOW is 2778kg but as any pilot will tell you they will never be close to that.
    AW 139 should be capable of lifting the 105mm light artillery gun, 1858kg, plus crew and ammo.
    I believe this was one of the criteria in selecting this type of helicopter.
    It said it was able to in An Cosantoir

  19. #119
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    Hi all
    A lot of noise is being made here about what can or cannot fly at night or what can or cannot be lifted....Alouettes can fly at night, perfectly well, as the aircraft is unable to tell the time of day. Alouettes cannot fly in conditions of known icing, especially not at night and are not equipped for flight in Instrument conditions. the instruments on the Alouette's panel are not NVG-compatible. The EC and AWs, on the other hand, are fully IFR-capable but, like many,many other helicopters, are not allowed to fly in potential icing conditions because they do not have de-icing/anti-icing equipment on their rotor blades.A helicopter with ice on it's rotors is doomed, therefore helicopter pilots do not fly in such conditions.That's not an Air Corps limitation, it's a world-wide limitation.... As for the request for a night extraction exercise, if it was ad-hoc and unplanned and the route in and out was unfamiliar, forget it. No heli pilot would risk it.... As for civvie load-lifting, you'll find that they strip out the seats,etc and fly with minimum fuel for the job. Incidentally, the Alouettes were used to carry the 120mm mortar. How much do they weigh?. I'd give the AW crews a bit more time to get familiar with their aircraft before risking them on heavy loads...as regards the target-tugging, give the Donners a more powerful aircraft or else hire in civvies. The 172 was always limited and the pilots hated it's sluggish behaviour with the drogue equipment aboard.....I agree that there are many things that civvies do better than the military and that the military are slow to learn, but it cuts across all Services. If you want to waste your breath, I suggest you try bringing civvie ideas into the DF. Unless you're an Officer and you can absolutely prove that it will save money, you haven't a prayer.
    regards
    GttC

  20. #120
    4 Star General andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blue Max View Post
    Its was quoted in the indo article about "the new AW139 that has capabaility to be armed with Two x FN GPMG Machine Gunsaswell as other weapons"

    Does anybody what other types of weapons the aircraft are able/wired to carry?

    Are refering like of 12.7mm HMG Gun Pods or rocket pods etc??

    The helicopter should be armed with two crew operated mini guns. A GPMG is not sufficent

  21. #121
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Dunno about that, a GPMG can lay down a heavy layer of fire if necessary. A Minigun creates extra load on the aircrafts electrical system.

  22. #122
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy View Post
    The helicopter should be armed with two crew operated mini guns. A GPMG is not sufficient
    What are you basing this on? GPMG's are used as door guns the world over, where have they been found to be insufficient?
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  23. #123
    4 Star General andy's Avatar
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    GPMG was standard in the Vietnam war but things have moved on a lot since. All blackhawks use miniguns AFAIK. Its standard equipment.

    these new helis should be capable of operating two.

  24. #124
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    For what? These Helis will not be deployed overseas. The ability to mount Machine guns are purely a realistic training aid.

  25. #125
    all i ask is why Gasplug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy View Post
    The helicopter should be armed with two crew operated mini guns. A GPMG is not sufficent
    Quote Originally Posted by FMolloy View Post
    What are you basing this on? GPMG's are used as door guns the world over, where have they been found to be insufficient?
    Andy is a military expert ya know, as we experienced with the split thread on our spanish friends! sorry for going off topic!:wink:
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