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  • #91
    Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
    ...but the ROE's that the ships operate under have to be changed as well, would the political class here accept a situation like a few years ago when a US Marine team killed some Indian fishermen when they thought they were a threat?
    I'm genuinely not being facetious, but is there anyone here who thinks that the Irish body politic has responded to the experiences of the Irish Army in the Congo yet?

    Sure, the credit card has been tapped for some decent tactical level gear, but has there really been much move on the much bigger issues of doctrine, training, combined arms deployment, organic and inorganic firepower, mobility or ISR?

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    • #92
      Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      I'm genuinely not being facetious, but is there anyone here who thinks that the Irish body politic has responded to the experiences of the Irish Army in the Congo yet?

      Sure, the credit card has been tapped for some decent tactical level gear, but has there really been much move on the much bigger issues of doctrine, training, combined arms deployment, organic and inorganic firepower, mobility or ISR?
      Yes, yes, we aren't big enough to do it by ourselves overseas, yes and possibly, yes, yes

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      • #93
        Originally posted by apc View Post
        Or as another option why not look at some thing like this [ATTACH]8379[/ATTACH]
        www.msi-dsl.com/our_products/weapons/sigma.php
        http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/uk-com...ssile-martlet/
        the seahawk sigma looks like an ideal upgrade for the rhinos. whats the cost per unit i wonder?

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        • #94
          Naval Firepower

          Originally posted by restless View Post
          the seahawk sigma looks like an ideal upgrade for the rhinos. whats the cost per unit i wonder?
          There has been some thoughtful responses to the need to see our ship's armaments upgraded to match the Corvettes outfits of Yore. The LMM mounts, light strike missiles, are useful if used in a combined Gun Array, giving a choice of dealing suitably with targets surface or air. The 8km range, even at 1.5Mach, is only suitable when in a conflict with a close threat/target. An additional strike missile that would hit detected threats over the horizon ( 100+K) would add a needed capability of giving support to a shore unit. There are bolt on units available, and also containerised systems such as used by the Danish Navy. As European Defence develops we should use persuasion to ensure we are part of the solution and get assistance to arm accordingly.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            There has been some thoughtful responses to the need to see our ship's armaments upgraded to match the Corvettes outfits of Yore. The LMM mounts, light strike missiles, are useful if used in a combined Gun Array, giving a choice of dealing suitably with targets surface or air. The 8km range, even at 1.5Mach, is only suitable when in a conflict with a close threat/target. An additional strike missile that would hit detected threats over the horizon ( 100+K) would add a needed capability of giving support to a shore unit. There are bolt on units available, and also containerised systems such as used by the Danish Navy. As European Defence develops we should use persuasion to ensure we are part of the solution and get assistance to arm accordingly.
            The "Bolt on" components of the Danish designs (say the Absalon) are for ESSM class missiles (so relatively short ranged) for anything like over the horizon you'd need to go to a full up VLS system (the Strike version of the 41 or the larger variants of the Sylver VLS if you want European). You'd also need full up integrated Radar and C&C system. To go back to the Danish hulls it's the difference between the Absalon's and the Iver Huitfeldt class specs, and the price tags for same.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
              The "Bolt on" components of the Danish designs (say the Absalon) are for ESSM class missiles (so relatively short ranged) for anything like over the horizon you'd need to go to a full up VLS system (the Strike version of the 41 or the larger variants of the Sylver VLS if you want European). You'd also need full up integrated Radar and C&C system. To go back to the Danish hulls it's the difference between the Absalon's and the Iver Huitfeldt class specs, and the price tags for same.
              The shorter range Kongsberg NSM at about 100nm/ 185kms, with its Thales system ,would be suitable as it is currently fitted to small Norwegian patrol craft (250tonne) 45/60kts. they carry 8 missiles in an internal magazine system.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                The shorter range Kongsberg NSM at about 100nm/ 185kms, with its Thales system ,would be suitable as it is currently fitted to small Norwegian patrol craft (250tonne) 45/60kts. they carry 8 missiles in an internal magazine system.
                Can you please elaborate on the Thales system? Can't find the connection.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                  Can you please elaborate on the Thales system? Can't find the connection.
                  he means the radar system - its Thales MRR-3D/NG system. despite the 100m range of the NSM, the radar horizon is still the limit for surface detection, so you'd still need someone/thing else to do the target indentifiction and designation.

                  the missile launching system in the Skold class ship is about as 'bolt-on' as the engines in a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier. not very...

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                  • #99
                    The phrase "designed around" springs to mind.

                    Regarding the radar, my thoughts exactly and hence my confusion. 100nm missile range is irrelevant if you don't have something, airborne or otherwise to do provide target info. You just won't see it with on-board systems.

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                    • Nsm kongsberg

                      Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                      he means the radar system - its Thales MRR-3D/NG system. despite the 100m range of the NSM, the radar horizon is still the limit for surface detection, so you'd still need someone/thing else to do the target indentifiction and designation.

                      the missile launching system in the Skold class ship is about as 'bolt-on' as the engines in a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier. not very...
                      The clue is always in the ships fit. If it has a 160km Strike missile then the likelihood is that it can engage a suite of threats. This means it has all the gizmos needed to be good to go. The Skjold class has the SAAB Ceros 200 radar /optronic FCS for missiles and guns but also has (Multi Role Radar with automatic switching mode ,surface, air, and self-defence) i.e. MRR-3D-NG. The latter has a low level target range of 140km, in air 3D mode up to 180km, and in self-defence mode can track any target up to 60km. If it can be fitted in an air cushion vessel it can be fitted in a 90meter ship.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        The phrase "designed around" springs to mind.

                        Regarding the radar, my thoughts exactly and hence my confusion. 100nm missile range is irrelevant if you don't have something, airborne or otherwise to do provide target info. You just won't see it with on-board systems.
                        I felt like pointing that out as well, to me there's also questions about whether you want to send what for us would be the best of the navy with some degree of land attack systems to attack another nation/group and rely on just "short ranged" ESSM/Aster 15/SeaCeptor class missiles and close in active/passive defences.

                        The other question for me in a "European" context is whether say 3 Light Frigate armed hulls adds much to the combat capability of the total force, when really only 1 would be deployable for sustained periods? As unsexy (and in a weapons thread as well) as it sounds I still think if we were thinking of combined EU operations addressing other areas of weakness (such as the glaring Replenishment issue) might bring better value.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                          I felt like pointing that out as well, to me there's also questions about whether you want to send what for us would be the best of the navy with some degree of land attack systems to attack another nation/group and rely on just "short ranged" ESSM/Aster 15/SeaCeptor class missiles and close in active/passive defences.

                          The other question for me in a "European" context is whether say 3 Light Frigate armed hulls adds much to the combat capability of the total force, when really only 1 would be deployable for sustained periods? As unsexy (and in a weapons thread as well) as it sounds I still think if we were thinking of combined EU operations addressing other areas of weakness (such as the glaring Replenishment issue) might bring better value.

                          same here - if you have an EU or EU+ maritime operation with French, German, Italian etc.. Frigates and Destroyers operating at Frigate and Destroyer level, then the addition of some happy shopper Corvette adds nothing whatsoever to the whole, and just drains capability away by needing support and protection. if you actually want to provide support that other EU states will be grateful for, rather than coverage on the news, you provide RAS, or sealift or airlift.

                          sticking this or that system on a happy shopper Corvette isn't going to make it a Frigate or Destroyer, only spending €500m on a ship turns it into a Frigate or Destroyer, and we all know the chances of that happening...

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                          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                            same here - if you have an EU or EU+ maritime operation with French, German, Italian etc.. Frigates and Destroyers operating at Frigate and Destroyer level, then the addition of some happy shopper Corvette adds nothing whatsoever to the whole, and just drains capability away by needing support and protection. if you actually want to provide support that other EU states will be grateful for, rather than coverage on the news, you provide RAS, or sealift or airlift.

                            sticking this or that system on a happy shopper Corvette isn't going to make it a Frigate or Destroyer, only spending €500m on a ship turns it into a Frigate or Destroyer, and we all know the chances of that happening...
                            When you look at operations even like Operation Atalanta (or other "Peace Enforcement" long duration missions), which would benefit the operation more: another Corvette/light frigate, or a sustained RAS capability (particularly when you consider the role the RN/USN supply ships have had in such operations and the suggestion even from Merkel yesterday about the EU needing to look to itself)? Now of course that doesn't answer or "domestic EEZ" needs but could easily be able to operate in the Med (and provide larger support for said oepration) and further with joint operations.

                            Comment


                            • The RN has proven the ability of RAS ships to work alone in a hazardous environment. Perhaps it is a useful asset to have? Stores? Yes. RAS? Yes. Helipad? Of course. Self defence armament with an offensive capability? Yes. Extra accomodation for troops? Possible.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • the attractiveness of a RAS ship for overseas commitment work is added to by the fact that while a RAS ship might well end up with a security role, as na grohmiti notes, its unlikely to be be involved in the wholesale killing/maiming of brown people - which will tick the Irish political box with a massive pen...

                                interesting to note what you get, comparatively: €150m buys a 26,000 ton RAS with 48 bed hospital, 40 ISO containers, flight deck up to Chinook/CH-53 size, a hanger, and 8,000 tons of wet and dry cargo - and it will happily take Phalanx CIWS. or it will by you an up-gunned OPV with no helicopter that is, in anything other than the most permissive military environment, as much use as tits on a fish.

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