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Thread: Naval weaponry

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    The phrase "designed around" springs to mind.

    Regarding the radar, my thoughts exactly and hence my confusion. 100nm missile range is irrelevant if you don't have something, airborne or otherwise to do provide target info. You just won't see it with on-board systems.
    I felt like pointing that out as well, to me there's also questions about whether you want to send what for us would be the best of the navy with some degree of land attack systems to attack another nation/group and rely on just "short ranged" ESSM/Aster 15/SeaCeptor class missiles and close in active/passive defences.

    The other question for me in a "European" context is whether say 3 Light Frigate armed hulls adds much to the combat capability of the total force, when really only 1 would be deployable for sustained periods? As unsexy (and in a weapons thread as well) as it sounds I still think if we were thinking of combined EU operations addressing other areas of weakness (such as the glaring Replenishment issue) might bring better value.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I felt like pointing that out as well, to me there's also questions about whether you want to send what for us would be the best of the navy with some degree of land attack systems to attack another nation/group and rely on just "short ranged" ESSM/Aster 15/SeaCeptor class missiles and close in active/passive defences.

    The other question for me in a "European" context is whether say 3 Light Frigate armed hulls adds much to the combat capability of the total force, when really only 1 would be deployable for sustained periods? As unsexy (and in a weapons thread as well) as it sounds I still think if we were thinking of combined EU operations addressing other areas of weakness (such as the glaring Replenishment issue) might bring better value.

    same here - if you have an EU or EU+ maritime operation with French, German, Italian etc.. Frigates and Destroyers operating at Frigate and Destroyer level, then the addition of some happy shopper Corvette adds nothing whatsoever to the whole, and just drains capability away by needing support and protection. if you actually want to provide support that other EU states will be grateful for, rather than coverage on the news, you provide RAS, or sealift or airlift.

    sticking this or that system on a happy shopper Corvette isn't going to make it a Frigate or Destroyer, only spending €500m on a ship turns it into a Frigate or Destroyer, and we all know the chances of that happening...

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    same here - if you have an EU or EU+ maritime operation with French, German, Italian etc.. Frigates and Destroyers operating at Frigate and Destroyer level, then the addition of some happy shopper Corvette adds nothing whatsoever to the whole, and just drains capability away by needing support and protection. if you actually want to provide support that other EU states will be grateful for, rather than coverage on the news, you provide RAS, or sealift or airlift.

    sticking this or that system on a happy shopper Corvette isn't going to make it a Frigate or Destroyer, only spending €500m on a ship turns it into a Frigate or Destroyer, and we all know the chances of that happening...
    When you look at operations even like Operation Atalanta (or other "Peace Enforcement" long duration missions), which would benefit the operation more: another Corvette/light frigate, or a sustained RAS capability (particularly when you consider the role the RN/USN supply ships have had in such operations and the suggestion even from Merkel yesterday about the EU needing to look to itself)? Now of course that doesn't answer or "domestic EEZ" needs but could easily be able to operate in the Med (and provide larger support for said oepration) and further with joint operations.

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  7. #104
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    The RN has proven the ability of RAS ships to work alone in a hazardous environment. Perhaps it is a useful asset to have? Stores? Yes. RAS? Yes. Helipad? Of course. Self defence armament with an offensive capability? Yes. Extra accomodation for troops? Possible.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  9. #105
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    the attractiveness of a RAS ship for overseas commitment work is added to by the fact that while a RAS ship might well end up with a security role, as na grohmiti notes, its unlikely to be be involved in the wholesale killing/maiming of brown people - which will tick the Irish political box with a massive pen...

    interesting to note what you get, comparatively: €150m buys a 26,000 ton RAS with 48 bed hospital, 40 ISO containers, flight deck up to Chinook/CH-53 size, a hanger, and 8,000 tons of wet and dry cargo - and it will happily take Phalanx CIWS. or it will by you an up-gunned OPV with no helicopter that is, in anything other than the most permissive military environment, as much use as tits on a fish.

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  11. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    the attractiveness of a RAS ship for overseas commitment work is added to by the fact that while a RAS ship might well end up with a security role, as na grohmiti notes, its unlikely to be be involved in the wholesale killing/maiming of brown people - which will tick the Irish political box with a massive pen...

    interesting to note what you get, comparatively: €150m buys a 26,000 ton RAS with 48 bed hospital, 40 ISO containers, flight deck up to Chinook/CH-53 size, a hanger, and 8,000 tons of wet and dry cargo - and it will happily take Phalanx CIWS. or it will by you an up-gunned OPV with no helicopter that is, in anything other than the most permissive military environment, as much use as tits on a fish.
    Add in the increased functionality it could provide for humanitarian operations if Ireland ever expanded to state operations (like for example the Italian's sending their Carrier to Hati), I mean hell if you really wanted (though it hasn't happened in modern times) you could fit Self Defence VLS (Proposed Sea Wolf on the Fort's).

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  13. #107
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    Most importantly, you can still do the routine fishery protection duty in the exact same way you currently do it, so long as you use the safe single point RhIB launcher.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  14. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Most importantly, you can still do the routine fishery protection duty in the exact same way you currently do it, so long as you use the safe single point RhIB launcher.
    Well a RAS hull doing EEZ Fisheries is taking the mick...
    Going off the rotations we have had for the Med, why not divide the fleet into the EEZ OPV's and RAS hulls for out of EEZ operations. Even when something isn't on, I'm sure joint training operations could be arranged with costs covered by partners (or a trade off)

  15. #109
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    EPV?

  16. #110
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    Cant see a 26000 tonner tying up in NBAD.

  17. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    EPV?
    Unless you go for something with say Absalon capabilities, an EPV of the type the NS was looking at 10 years ago (MEKO MRV) brings little or nothing to the party for any overseas role beyond Med rescue.

  18. #112
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    somebody help me out please. RAS?

  19. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    somebody help me out please. RAS?
    Replenishment At Sea.

  20. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    Unless you go for something with say Absalon capabilities, an EPV of the type the NS was looking at 10 years ago (MEKO MRV) brings little or nothing to the party for any overseas role beyond Med rescue.
    That's pretty much what I was thinking just now, I admit the idea of a RAS focused Joint operational investment is "unlikely" to the powers that be, but something that is going to be our most expensive and largest single naval investment (as there's only going to be 1), it would need to be something that does have more than just an outsized OPV now.

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  22. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Replenishment At Sea.
    RAS sounds like razzzz .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  24. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    somebody help me out please. RAS?
    The ship's we're talking about are big, fast tankers - floating supply depots for everything a task group needs from deisel through aviation fuel, ammunition, food, vehicles, spare parts and all the rest - they are huge, have unlimited endurance, excellent sea-keeping capabilities, embarked aviation, space for upto 100 embarked troops, can defend themselves and regularly prove their ability to do counter-piracy, counter-terrorism and anti-smuggling duties without support.

    They are are also very good at turning up at humanitarian disasters and proving very useful.

    They are vastly more capable and useful than a cut-price light Frigate.

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  26. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Cant see a 26000 tonner tying up in NBAD.
    Of course not, It's dark outside and you live nowhere nearby.
    You don't need to go as far as 26000 tonnes. You can make a huge capability leap with something like the German Elbe class. In any event, there are exciting plans for extending berthage in Haulbowline that are not constrained by the entrance to the basin.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    The ship's we're talking about are big, fast tankers - floating supply depots for everything a task group needs from deisel through aviation fuel, ammunition, food, vehicles, spare parts and all the rest - they are huge, have unlimited endurance, excellent sea-keeping capabilities, embarked aviation, space for upto 100 embarked troops, can defend themselves and regularly prove their ability to do counter-piracy, counter-terrorism and anti-smuggling duties without support.

    They are are also very good at turning up at humanitarian disasters and proving very useful.

    They are vastly more capable and useful than a cut-price light Frigate.


    The one in the middle is the German Navy Berlin class Joint Support ship. Canada just bought 2 for $2.6bn. NZ are buying a similar type of these for $493,000,000. Australia and the UK are spending £452,000,000 to get the Koreans to build something similar for them.
    However, the sensible norwegians are spending £140m on this.

    http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-p...pport-vessels/
    Last edited by na grohmití; 14th January 2017 at 01:10.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  30. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    The one in the middle is the German Navy Berlin class Joint Support ship. Canada just bought 2 for $2.6bn. NZ are buying a similar type of these for $493,000,000. Australia and the UK are spending £452,000,000 to get the Koreans to build something similar for them.
    However, the sensible norwegians are spending £140m on this.
    Bare in mind the NZ design is meant for Ice operations to support international Antarctica missions so that added a bit to the price tag. I mean the Norwegian hull is based off the same design as the UK one just the "smaller" option I think.

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  32. #120
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    So when we buy this tanker/stores vessel what are we going to do with it?

    Humanitarian assistance

    RAS of fleets that we can't deploy
    Last edited by DeV; 14th January 2017 at 08:28.

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  34. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    So when we buy this tanker/stores vessel what are we going to do with it?

    Humanitarian assistance

    RAS of fleets that we can't deploy
    No, as gone through a million times for the hard of thinking, it's an asset that supports other people's very expensive high-end fighting ships as Ireland's contribution to European maritime security.

    This is the idea of providing a spoke in a large wheel, rather that providing a tiny wheel with poor quality tyres that doesn't fit on anyone elses axle.

    A ship like this could happily spend six months supporting the OP in the Med or OP Atlanta, do three months refit, and then spend three months pooling around the carribean catching drug runners and providing much needed humanitarian aid - and huge quantities to politically attractive TV coverage - every year for the rest of it's life.

    This compares somewhat favourably to a 3,000 ton Happy Shopper Corvette with no helicopter, a limited self defense capability, little offensive capability, no great shakes on the ISR front, no ASW, which needs to be refuelled and protected by other assets.

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  36. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    So when we buy this tanker/stores vessel what are we going to do with it?

    Humanitarian assistance

    RAS of fleets that we can't deploy
    Everything the current fleet are already doing. Just doing things like RAS, overseas resupply, humanitarian aid a whole lot better than the current vessels can.
    Such a vessel is not limited by its design. It is still crewed by naval officers, NCOs and other ranks.
    Look at what the RN is doing with its vessels of this type in the Carribean and Indian Ocean.
    You can do RAS with whatever ship you are operating with, it doesn't need to be Irish.

    Can you see?
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  38. #123
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    naval Weaponry

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    So when we buy this tanker/stores vessel what are we going to do with it?

    Humanitarian assistance

    RAS of fleets that we can't deploy
    I,m finding it hard to believe that any of us is adding anything to creating a Navy that, at very least ,will defend itself adequately in home waters and on overseas missions. talking about 26,000 tonne ships is a useless exercise. Replenishment at sea is an everyday chore of most navies when moving on mission at sea. It stands to reason that ALL naval ships should be able RAS with each other and with other Navies.
    There is No planned intention of setting out solo to attack other countries or ships in our present configuration or alliances.
    We do get tasked beyond our capability to respond on politically expedient missions such as, Cuban Missile crisis, Support Mission and Survey at Monrovia with ARW, and Operation Pontus close to Lybian coast.

    The ships as currently designed and built are beyond the implied denigration of some, rather they are tamely equipped for the job they are doing in to day's fractious world of global terrorists. A replenishment vessel with other role capabilities, and well trained an exercised in all those roles, would remain an asset both at home and abroad.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 14th January 2017 at 16:42.

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  40. #124
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    An RAS would be an easy sell to the peace loving commy fagots in the Dail

    As we keep emergency humanitarian storehouses in the likes of Italy,

    We need something to move the stores with in times of disasters.

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  42. #125
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    The NS primarilly needs assets for patrolling. That will generally be within the Irish EEZ (that could be fishery protection, counter terrorism or defending neutrality. Everything after that is a bonus.

    We also need small crews definitely no more than 100. We can't man what we have.

    Why is RN sending replenishment vessels to do the job a frigate/destroyer used to do? They don't have enough.

    In the case of a humanitarian, resupply, etc type op. No argument, a replenishment type vessel is better. For patrolling, not ideal. IMHO an MRV is a good compromise - in fact that are specifically designed to do both jobs.

    Of course the MRV is likely more capable of being equipped to at very least detect surface, aerial and sub-surface threats - unlike a replenishment ship with CIWS and 30mm guns.

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