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Thread: Naval weaponry

  1. #126
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    Silly question here but why increase the fleet to 9?

    I had assumed the extra hull was to provide for operations further from home as in pontus??

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  3. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Silly question here but why increase the fleet to 9?

    I had assumed the extra hull was to provide for operations further from home as in pontus??
    Considering the study done (90's or 00's I think) suggested 12 ships, and we've since increased our EEZ area of patrol massively an increase in hull numbers is needed.

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post


    The one in the middle is the German Navy Berlin class Joint Support ship. Canada just bought 2 for $2.6bn. NZ are buying a similar type of these for $493,000,000. Australia and the UK are spending £452,000,000 to get the Koreans to build something similar for them.
    However, the sensible norwegians are spending £140m on this.

    http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-p...pport-vessels/
    I really like this idea. This has a second application. In EU integrated ops, having an AOR or two to bring to the table would be _very_ useful. And it would indeed be a lovely political sale.

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  7. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    I really like this idea. This has a second application. In EU integrated ops, having an AOR or two to bring to the table would be _very_ useful. And it would indeed be a lovely political sale.
    That's why I suggested it, AOR hulls are certainly thin in the EU nations compared to the combat ships, having an option to put them on a mission rather than an OPV+ to me seems to have more value. Of course it's a hull designed for out of EEZ operations, but I think we should think about such a long term investment.
    Last edited by Sparky42; 14th January 2017 at 22:40.

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  9. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The NS primarilly needs assets for patrolling. That will generally be within the Irish EEZ (that could be fishery protection, counter terrorism or defending neutrality. Everything after that is a bonus.

    We also need small crews definitely no more than 100. We can't man what we have.

    Why is RN sending replenishment vessels to do the job a frigate/destroyer used to do? They don't have enough.

    In the case of a humanitarian, resupply, etc type op. No argument, a replenishment type vessel is better. For patrolling, not ideal. IMHO an MRV is a good compromise - in fact that are specifically designed to do both jobs.

    Of course the MRV is likely more capable of being equipped to at very least detect surface, aerial and sub-surface threats - unlike a replenishment ship with CIWS and 30mm guns.
    You can patrol with any hull. In the past we patrolled with a Converted Trawler and a Lighthouse tender. Some countries carry out patrols with Destroyers. The MRV/EPV was expected to have a crew of 120. The AEGIR 18 has accomodation for 180, However the AEGIR 10, at 10000tonnes and 145m only requires a crew of 57, having accomodation for 80.

    We can't man what we have because there is still a block on proper effective recruitment throughout the DF. Not just recruits but skilled tradespeople and specialised officers. A reluctance to replace skilled people who leave because DF wages are uncompetitive. It has always been this way.
    Your point about the RN is incorrect, as the USN and Spanish are using their AORs in a similar manner. Indeed the SPS Patino took on Somali pirates who mistook them for a freighter. Using a Frigate or Destroyer for counter narcotics is overkill. Have you seen the level of armament on USCG vessels? Not their cutters, the vessels that do most of the work in the carribean? Even the armament of Customs vessels in europe? Once you have armed crew with fast interceptors you can make a hell of a difference.

    It is as easy to fit proper sensors on an AOR as any other vessel. Combine that with a Helideck operating an aircraft with decent optics and radar and you still arrive at capability far greater than any current vessel in service here.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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  11. #131
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    AEGIR 18 is only equippedwith 30mm guns and 2 CWS, the SPS Patino is equipped with 20mm guns and 2 CWS, Considering the direction the thread had previously been taken is this arament adequate or do we need long range ASM and SAM systems. Fair play to the Spanish for having the balls to tackle pirates with just 2 x 20mm guns

  12. #132
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    Any chance of thread title change to "AOR for Naval Service" etc?

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    I don't think front line war fighting capability is a political option any time soon. 2 CIWS (Thales make a 40mm CIWS armed with rhe 40mm CTA) and a few extra guns is grand against smuggler. Decent radar aye and a half decent CMS. Possibly FFBNW for 2xCAMM VLS.

    And presumably it would be the Aegir 10, possibly as 10R with more dry goods storage and a hospital.
    Last edited by Graylion; 15th January 2017 at 15:39.

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  15. #134
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    Ship Armament

    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    AEGIR 18 is only equippedwith 30mm guns and 2 CWS, the SPS Patino is equipped with 20mm guns and 2 CWS, Considering the direction the thread had previously been taken is this arament adequate or do we need long range ASM and SAM systems. Fair play to the Spanish for having the balls to tackle pirates with just 2 x 20mm guns
    .

    Fleet ships are armed to cover the scenario in their AOP. The Spaniard didn,t attack but responded with their weapon systems including IZAR Ciws of which they have two with 12 barrels each. Their helicopter also joined in using a machine gun. Of the seven pirates, one killed missing, five wounded, and all alive captured and skiff destroyed. Patino had 50 small arms strikes from AK47.
    We also must arm appropriately to Defend E 60m property and to carry out assigned missions in today's asymmetric threats.

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  17. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    ...Considering the direction the thread had previously been taken is this arament adequate or do we need long range ASM and SAM systems...
    depends on what you decide you want to do - if you want to provide a frontline, fighting ship that will regularly sit at the sharp end of EU and EU+ security operations, then you need something that can cope with the threats inherant in that and that can project the capabilities required to make such a vessel an actual asset rather than a waste of rations: thats either AAW, surface warfare, ASW, ISR, Aviation, or shore 'support'. so it needs one, or more, of those capabilities and it needs to be able to look after itself with surveilance systems and a mix of hard and soft defensive systems.

    none of the above is going to come in at much less than 5,000 tonnes, and none of the above is going to come in at much less than €400m per hull.

    if you chose to instead provide a RAS Suport Ship it would still need some defensive systems - CIWS of some type, and something in the 30-40mm RWS range, and the 'soft kill' DAS of jamming, decoys etc... however its job isn't projecting kinetic power, so you don't need the other capabilities you get on a fighting ship like a Frigate or Destroyer.

    the worst. worst. worst thing you could possibly do would be to try and bastardise the two types - all you'd get would be a really crap, but reasuringly expensive, light frigate with little offensive or defensive capability, along with the load carrying ability of an athsmatic Ant.

    personally i also see little point in a 10,000 ton fleet support ship - the initial cost isn't that much cheaper than a 26,000 ton fleet support ship like the RNoN Maud, the crewing requirement isn't that different, all you get for a little bit less money is a great deal less capability.

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  19. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    [...]
    personally i also see little point in a 10,000 ton fleet support ship - the initial cost isn't that much cheaper than a 26,000 ton fleet support ship like the RNoN Maud, the crewing requirement isn't that different, all you get for a little bit less money is a great deal less capability.
    Agreed - smaller might make it more politically sellable though.

  20. #137
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    "the worst. worst. worst thing you could possibly do would be to try and bastardise the two types - all you'd get would be a really crap, but reasuringly expensive, light frigate with little offensive or defensive capability, along with the load carrying ability of an athsmatic Ant.

    Hmm Absalon doesnt appear to be that crap.

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  22. #138
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    agreed. I still think an AOR would bring more to the table.

  23. #139
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    Excuse my ignorance but what is "AOR" ?

    (ye might find this amusing - i just googled AOR and the responses include - Album Orientated Rock and Australian Off Road! :-)

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  25. #140
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    Auxiliary - Oiler - Replenishment

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  27. #141
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    Oh and I just talked to a contact. Overall price is 254 M$. The 140 M£ (172 M$) is just before the final outfiitting in a Norwegian shipyard, which is where all the expensive stuff is installed. Still a good price though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Oh and I just talked to a contact. Overall price is 254 M$. The 140 M£ (172 M$) is just before the final outfiitting in a Norwegian shipyard, which is where all the expensive stuff is installed. Still a good price though.
    Not really surprised, but plenty of the EU nations are getting "cute" in terms of how they are pricing the hulls (for example for the Absalon step sisters the cost is just the hull, weapons etc aren't priced in.

  29. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Not really surprised, but plenty of the EU nations are getting "cute" in terms of how they are pricing the hulls (for example for the Absalon step sisters the cost is just the hull, weapons etc aren't priced in.
    Actually, it makes perfect sense. 172 M$ is the value of the contract with BMT/Daewoo and that is what is usually quoted. It is OTOP, not the budget position.

  30. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    The phrase "designed around" springs to mind.

    Regarding the radar, my thoughts exactly and hence my confusion. 100nm missile range is irrelevant if you don't have something, airborne or otherwise to do provide target info. You just won't see it with on-board systems.
    The NSM comes in a box launcher which can be bolted on just like any other launcher as for Exocet or Harpoon.

    As for needing target information the NSM is able to find its own target thanks to its IIR and on-board library of targets. So all you need to know is the rough area where the target is.
    Of course how much of the library would be available to us as a non-NATO country is something that would need to be handled.

  31. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The NSM comes in a box launcher which can be bolted on just like any other launcher as for Exocet or Harpoon.

    As for needing target information the NSM is able to find its own target thanks to its IIR and on-board library of targets. So all you need to know is the rough area where the target is.
    Of course how much of the library would be available to us as a non-NATO country is something that would need to be handled.
    The NSM is about as bolt on to the referenced ship as the engine. Way to reference a 2 month old post by the way. There is practically no ASM that isn't available in a bolt on container. Well done.

    You're also going to need to be a small bit more specific than saying there's a ship 60 miles out to starboard unless you have a hell of a lot of spare rounds. An internal IR database is about as useful as a copy of "Ships Monthly" if you don't put the missile in a 5 mile x 5 mile box.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 8th March 2017 at 00:45.

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  33. #146
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    NSM

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    The NSM is about as bolt on to the referenced ship as the engine. Way to reference a 2 month old post by the way. There is practically no ASM that isn't available in a bolt on container. Well done.

    You're also going to need to be a small bit more specific than saying there's a ship 60 miles out to starboard unless you have a hell of a lot of spare rounds. An internal IR database is about as useful as a copy of "Ships Monthly" if you don't put the missile in a 5 mile x 5 mile box.
    The 3.96meter missile with a range up to 185km has GPS aided mid course guidance . It also has Autonomous Target recognition with good target discrimination over sea and land. It would come subject to an accurate detection and guidance system. It is capable of terminal manoeuver to avoid weapon systems at target. It is 407kgs at launch and arrives with 145kgs of explosive. It has been trialed on test ships so it must have been uniquely installed on the Norwegian and US ships by a bolt-on procedure. It is the must have missile for land. air, and Sea platforms. The Polish package for Coast Defence was 123m USD. Cheap for what it does.

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  35. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The 3.96meter missile with a range up to 185km has GPS aided mid course guidance . It also has Autonomous Target recognition with good target discrimination over sea and land. It would come subject to an accurate detection and guidance system. It is capable of terminal manoeuver to avoid weapon systems at target. It is 407kgs at launch and arrives with 145kgs of explosive. It has been trialed on test ships so it must have been uniquely installed on the Norwegian and US ships by a bolt-on procedure. It is the must have missile for land. air, and Sea platforms. The Polish package for Coast Defence was 123m USD. Cheap for what it does.
    So is there any point arguing for ciws with this yoke around ?

  36. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by restless View Post
    So is there any point arguing for ciws with this yoke around ?
    Absolutely, especially a fully controlled system that continues sustained fire until the target is fragged.

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  38. #149
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    In terms of potential upgrades of what we have, has there been any thought of the Nexters Narwal or the Reutech Super Sea Rogue 20mm given that they use the same round as our current 20mm mounts?

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    The Rhino 202s are only a recent addition to the fleet, so I'd say there's no talk of their replacement just yet.
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

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