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  • #46
    Just compare the behavior of that para Col H Jones at Goose Green with the behavior of the OC of the Irish Battalion.
    Would you consider the former to be an example of effective military leadership?

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    • #47
      Comdt Quinlan lead an audacitic defence against a far superior force (in term of numbers) without any hope of reinforcement or resupply of ammunition, water or food. They held their positions as it wasn't feasible to withdraw.

      From 9 September 1961, they were surrounded by Katangan forces, the first attack was launched on 13 September, on 16 September the Katangans requested a ceasefire, which resulted in the Irish surrendering the next day.

      In my view everyone of the company deserves a medal.

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      • #48
        DeV
        I reckon you have the story right and I agree they all deserve a medal for being Brave,Tactful and Cute and if told to defend to the last man I reckon they would have been up for it.
        If that did happen all 150 would have been killed,so surrender was the only option with what they were left to face on their own.

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        • #49
          GOC132 I'm sorry you resent my comments.
          Just one or two points to show where I'm coming from.
          The CO at Jadotville thought it advisable to entrench his position but when the attack comes where are the men?At mass ,not a single position manned,a vickers left unattended.But for the quick reaction of an NCO the entire company could have been in the bag without a shot being fired.Where did they think they were Lourdes?
          The point is made that they were outnumbered.Sure by gendarme [armed police]who if the book is to be believed had to be threatened by the mercenaries to get them to fight.
          The CO passed up the opportunity to hit them hard.
          As for the attempt at relief Quinlan's action when he met with Kane says it all.He had to be held back from physically assulting him.

          Yellowjacket the paras were outnumbered by entrenched troops Jones led by example and they won.Where was the CO of the 35 Batt from the 13th to the 16th of Sept when his men were in mortal danger and the honour of the army at stake?

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          • #50
            wILD1

            I understand what you are saying but if you have served ,how long have you served? In my early days ,30 years ago any Irish Troops would be at mass coz that was the done thing. Times have changed, I agree H Jones attacked and won hence the VC if I am correct. This was the first ever deployment of Irish soldiers ever as a Bn or Company. So I think Quinlan did well and his troops trusted him, the CO of the Bn may or should have to answer questions but what crap was the UN Hirearchy spinning him, this we will never know but what happened Quinlan is documented. H Jones and the Brits on the other hand are seasoned campaigners with an Empire of Wars and the experience to boot. The Irish only fought one war if you want to call it a war and that was the War of Independance which was a gurella war. So the Irish did well in their first deployment overseas led by politions who knew f*** all about fighting a war and the Irish troops knew very little more. I think all Irish soldiers who came under enemy fire whether in the Congo, Leb etc or at home should be decorated. :tri: We work our jobs but no body shoots or bombs us each day.
            Last edited by FMolloy; 28 August 2005, 21:11.

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            • #51
              Did they all have to attend mass at the same time? Would they have abandoned their positions, en masse, for any other routine reason? Did they all eat or sleep at the same time?

              I'd also disagree with your description of H Jones & the Brits as 'seasoned campaigners'. Apart from Northern Ireland, the Brits hadn't seen any action since the pull out from Aden in 1967. Their victory in the Falklands was the result of superior training, amongst other things.
              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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              • #52
                In considering the military operations at Jadotville and the Lufira bridge one should take into account the kind of soldiers and units the Irish had deployed.They were to all intents and purposes bread and butter soldiers drawn from a domestic army.They would have performed to the highest standard in defence of the state however conflicts abroad were another thing entirely.Here their object was to do a good job but priority was the wife and kids.
                In the Falklands war the Brits deployed only elite units.Not a single line unit saw action there.Elite units do not take the wife and kids into battle with them their prority is to win regardless of the cause.Soldering is a high risk adventure sport to them they'll pay the price but get the honour and glory.
                There was no great shame in putting the wife and kids first but no cigar.

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                • #53
                  welcome back parkman, but you know it only leads to a ban
                  You're even dumber than I tell people

                  You might have been infected but you never were a bore

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                  • #54
                    The Blues and Royals are hardly Elite,no offence intended to them. In fact the entire Guards Brigade(at the time) Is pretty Line.


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                    • #55
                      Yes but the Brits had some 700 years of an empire and so there troops had experienced people instructing them and they could look at mistakes made and put in a new plan to defend or attack.

                      The Irish were novices raw un trained troops on the field of conflict.

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                      • #56
                        I used to work with a Congo veteran for a while. It seems the only preparatory training they undertook was drill and marching,as well as the mandatory injections for tropical diseases.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by goc132
                          Yes but the Brits had some 700 years of an empire and so there troops had experienced people instructing them and they could look at mistakes made and put in a new plan to defend or attack.
                          A lot of that 700 years was spent wearing red coats and fighting with musket & bayonet. how relevent was that to the Falklands? Between 1967 and 1982 the only hostile experience the BA had was in NI. That's a fifteen year gap between serious fighting, even longer between the Falklands and their last 'real' war in Korea. There wouldn't have been a huge number of personnel with real combat experience left, the skills used in the South Atlantic were learned in The Breacon's, in Germany and on Salsbury Plane.

                          In any event, why couldn't Irish officers have learned from the British experience, or that of others? What was to stop Irish officers attending staff courses elsewhere and implementing a more intensive training regime?

                          The fact that Irish troops performed well depsite their lack of training is as much an indicment of the senior management as it is a testiment to the ordinary soldiers themselves.
                          "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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                          • #58
                            We are talking 1960's and the brits were only over the 2nd world war 25 years earlier.
                            I still say that Quinlan and his men did extremely well given their circumstances.

                            Thats my opinion and it wont change,but those men should be exhonorated .

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                            • #59
                              We were talking about H Jones et al in The Falklands 1982, nobody mentioned the Brits prior to that.
                              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Maybe the Brits and others learned from the Congo errors (if we wish to call them that, for an army never deployed abroad before, in conditions extremely different from their home, jungle, heat, animals etc., after suffering years of under funding, I think the army acquitted themselves extremely well)?

                                IAS

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