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  • #61
    Hello all
    I think comparisons between the British Army and the Irish Army at the time do not stand up to comparison. The Irish went to the Congo with outdated firearms, vehicles, clothing, training, no artillery, no air cover and a penny-pinching attitude at home from the bureaucrats. They had in effect been in garrison mode since the Emergency and were utterly unready for any kind of foreign deployment. That they did so well is a testimony to their ability to learn.The British Army, then and in the time of the Falklands, were a worldwide, widely experienced force with plenty of direct in-house experience of war and a long habit of learning from past wars and changing to suit. Do you honestly think that if a British unit had been going to the Congo in 1962, that they would have gone with bolt-action rifles, no tropical clothing and grossly obsolete armour, not to mention utter dependence on other forces for heavy lift, artillery and air cover? As for the late "H" Jones, my opinion is that he saw a need for a decisive act to move the fight on to his advantage and carried out a move that lost him his life, but transferred the initiative to the British.He probably knew full well that he would be killed, but still went ahead.
    The Irish of Jadotville should be given an award for their courage, stability under fire and resolute attitude. Anyone who slags them off should be ashamed of themselves.
    regards
    GttC

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    • #62
      Strange you would say that because from what I have seen of the photographs from the Congo they were armed with FN rifles and Gustav sub-machine guns. These weapons must have been almost new at the time and were still in use until about 1989. The uniforms worn in the Congo (not the ones worn enroute or returning from there) look very similar to the ones issued to the troops serving in Lebanon until the late 1980's

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      • #63
        Hi there
        If you read Archie Raeside or Raymond Smith on the Congo,you'll see that they went out with the old kit and only got the better stuff later. They had to buy the tropical clothing from local sources because the Dept of Finance argued about the cost of refitting them with suitable clothing. Also,the Ford armoured cars proved inferior to the equally old but better armed Greyhound armoured cars of the opposition. Experience was not allowed to get in the way of optimism.Two of my uncles were there and can vouch for the chaotic state of organisational affairs.
        regards
        GttC

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        • #64
          Ex-Soldier you should see the photos of the first units getting on the planes you will see plenty of bulls wool. The gustav, I think (I am no expert on this), had just been introduced into the army. The FN came in while they were deployed in the Congo.

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          • #65
            The FN only came into service with the PDF in 1961, because of the situation in the Congo. We are talking about a time when there was 8-10,000 in the PDF. Yet we managed to send 6191 troops between 28 July 1960 to 30 June 1964.

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            • #66
              Yeah but remember that troops always went to Lebanon in their Irish combats and returned in either dress uniforms or the Khaki summer uniform issued for overseas. They were issued the bush greens in country and had to get them tailored to fit and look somewhat modern. The USA went to Vietnam using their WW2 weapons and propeller aircraft. They changed to jets and M16's after a few years. 1961 was after all only 16 years after WW2 ended. The FN rifle was in Irish service from early 1960's until 1990. The Americans are still using their M16 rifles. All Irish military vehicles are used for up to and beyond 20 years and this is not unusual for American vehicles either.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Ex-soldier
                Yeah but remember that troops always went to Lebanon in their Irish combats and returned in either dress uniforms or the Khaki summer uniform issued for overseas. They were issued the bush greens in country and had to get them tailored to fit and look somewhat modern. The USA went to Vietnam using their WW2 weapons and propeller aircraft. They changed to jets and M16's after a few years. 1961 was after all only 16 years after WW2 ended. The FN rifle was in Irish service from early 1960's until 1990. The Americans are still using their M16 rifles. All Irish military vehicles are used for up to and beyond 20 years and this is not unusual for American vehicles either.
                They were wearing WOOL on arrival! In the Jungle! Ask the men who were there for the first tour! The officers wore light Khaki while the best the other ranks could manage was heavy cotton.
                They carried Bolt action rifles when the US had been using self loading rifles for almost 30 years!
                Our armour (Ford Mk VI)was a relic of the Pre war days(1941 design on a 1939 80hp Ford V8 chassis...not post war! The armour was old boiler plate!

                The US army today use a modernised version of the M16 that went to Vietnam(M4 mostly).It is as similar to the original as the Current Ford fiesta is the same as the Fiesta Mk1. The US went to Vietnam using the 7.62mm M14, which was similar in technology to our then "New" FN FAL. It was not used in WW2. The Standard infantry rifle of the US in WW2 was the .30 M1 Garand.

                We went from Jet trainers to faster More advanced Propellor driven aircraft 2 years ago. The Propellor aircraft you refer to must be the A1E skyraider, which was accepted into service by the US Navy in 1954.


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                • #68
                  I'm not trying to say that they were modern by any means....what I'm trying to say is that they were equipped for the time they were in prior to going overseas and their equipment was updated as neccessary when it was discovered that it needed to be updated. Ireland had never sent anybody anywhere at that time and didn't consider it really neccessary. They went with the best they had at the time, just as the USA and every other country modernizes their gear during every new deployment. I wore heavy combats arriving in Lebanon for a summer trip!!! We did not get bush greens for about a week because they were French and were issued in country. It took about a week just to get them tailored to fit and yes we bought whatever we needed to make life more bearable. That is always the case. As far as the armour is concerned. 1941 -1961 is 20 years. How long were the poxy panhards is service?? Ireland was not involved in WW2 and therefore they did not have loads of gear lying around waiting to be used.

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                  • #69
                    siege at jadotville

                    Just finished reading the book by declan power '' siege at jadotville'' and i have to say , i think he has done a good service to the commandant Quinlan and his men. proir to reading this book my only other knowledge of this episode in IDF UN Congo history was when i read '' tough at the bottom'' by mick farrell, several years ago, were he gave a good account of the incident and i was also surprised to find that i wasent the only ex PDF man to not know of this story in our armys history .I spoke recently to two congo veterans and they couldent remember anything about the incident witch suggests that (1) the passing years has failed thier memories or' (2), as has being suggested , they are part of the collective amniesea of the time .Strange to think of how the 'niemba' incident was and still is to the fore in our armys history but this episode was by all accounts hushed up or, forgotten .The pics of the men in thier WW1 tunics, as mentioned in the book, waiting to board the globetrotters, tells its own story and one of the congo vets also mentioned somthing about the belgian beer playing its own part in the mens morale, but i wasent there , and thats a story ,if it hasent being told already , waiting to be ,,,,,,,,, :tri:

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                    • #70
                      siege at jadotville by declan power

                      Originally posted by stephen.haugh
                      Just finished reading the book by declan power '' siege at jadotville'' and i have to say , i think he has done a good service to the commandant Quinlan and his men. proir to reading this book my only other knowledge of this episode in IDF UN Congo history was when i read '' tough at the bottom'' by mick farrell, several years ago, were he gave a good account of the incident and i was also surprised to find that i wasent the only ex PDF man to not know of this story in our armys history .I spoke recently to two congo veterans and they couldent remember anything about the incident witch suggests that (1) the passing years has failed thier memories or' (2), as has being suggested , they are part of the collective amniesea of the time .Strange to think of how the 'niemba' incident was and still is to the fore in our armys history but this episode was by all accounts hushed up or, forgotten .The pics of the men in thier WW1 tunics, as mentioned in the book, waiting to board the globetrotters, tells its own story and one of the congo vets also mentioned somthing about the belgian beer playing its own part in the mens morale, but i wasent there , and thats a story ,if it hasent being told already , waiting to be ,,,,,,,,, :tri:
                      enclosed photos

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                      • #71
                        I've read the above book too.
                        It's very good and I highly reccommend it.
                        It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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                        • #72
                          Jadoville, Jadoville.
                          all I know is the two streams of opinion that arise from it .

                          1. We did alright , it was not worth dying for the UN or a bunch of wogs or far away from home or we only joined up for a job and a cushy barrack life.

                          2. We were the unfortunate, we were sent there and we were unlucky. We did our best we fought until nothing left,last round and all that bullshit. we were badly lead. we are soldiers in order that we should die , we were badly lead. we should have charged the enemy, we should have died, we all trained for years and did as little as we could in our little garrison jobs , why us why should we die , we did not join up for this . when push came to shove we bottled out .

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                          • #73
                            As has been said before in various treads equipment does not give the edge to fighting troops.
                            No. its traditiom , training , leadership, fighting spirit, professionism no not pay , willingness to die , the give and take of death. example seen and heard first hand, Operation order to Indian Army Batt in attack.... We will attack the Post office in Elizebethville and kill all therin", and so they did just that ,as they cleared the place floor by floor they killed the enemy and threw them out the windows. They were armed with the old Lee Enfield .303 rifle with the 18" bayonet.
                            Last edited by Gunner Who?; 14 October 2005, 14:00.

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                            • #74
                              Actually the above book goes on to say that the Irish were low on ammo but not out of it.
                              They called a cease-fire with the belgian officers, and that allowed the enemy to reorganise their forces.

                              Then the 2 groups started to patrol Jadotville together. The Irish troops were asked to store their weapons in a nearby hotel.

                              The commander knew what was going on, it mentions in the book that the Irish were tricked, but the senior officers knew what was happening.
                              It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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                              • #75
                                reading the above book and with the benifit of hindsight it is easy to say that if put in that situation that one might have done this ,or might have done that . one could say that thier might have being a little to much trust by the irish towards the mercenarys given that they were handed over to the 'gands' who physically and verbally abused the men to the point were they were terrified and it would be quite right to think that they were only spared being massacered as they were now VIP's ''very important prisnors of katanga '' i think if they had known beforehand what was in store for them they would have prefered to die fighting rather than the other horrible choice of being butchered to death.

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