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Scorpion replacment?

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  • Originally posted by sofa View Post
    Jackal 2 ?
    That sailed straight over my head ...

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    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
      That sailed straight over my head ...
      Sorry, it was more a suggestion to Ropebags experience of IEDs planted along roads. Jackel if used as intended would stay off the beaten track.

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      • Potential replacement for Scorpions

        Hi Folks

        Ive mentioned this a few times in the past. I still firmly believe that the Irish state needs something in its locker that packs more punch than a 30MM and in my very humble opinion something like the Centauro fits the bill quite nicely.

        (see below link they have just launched the 8 wheeled Centauro 2 armed with a stabilised 120 MM gun – 12 minute video including opnions – author is ex British Army Tanker)

        The Italian Centauro 2 fire support vehicle is a next-generation version of the original Centauro. It has a revised 8x8 chassis, and is armed with a more pow...


        Now before I get told “its not reece” and therefore has no business in our inventory please bear in mind the following.

        It actually is a Multi role Vehicle capable of reece, force protection, long range patrolling, direct fire support, light anti tank etc.

        And secondly even if the “its not reece” statement was true (which it isn’t) then so what? As I say in my opening sentence, the Irish state needs something more in its inventory than 6 MRV’s armed with 30MM. personally I believe that each brigade should have a squadron each of something like this.

        The scorpions are all but useless at this stage, would something like this not represent a massive leap forward?

        Finally yes I know there is a version of the Mowag in use with the Belgians with I think a 90MM mounted in a turret fulfilling an identical role but its nearly as high as a skyscraper and to my utterly uneducated eye looks more than a tad unstable. Id love to see a tender opened and trials between these vehicles to determine which is the most effective.

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        • The Cav Sqns need more MRVs and CRVs.

          1 ACS IMHO does need a heavier deployable cost effective vehicle

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          • A Fire Support Vehicle is planned, it always was on the shopping list as an AML 90 replacement along with many more Mowags but that never happened. The Scorpions are pending retirement and I believe a wheeled medium armoured FSV is favoured as a replacement, although this is still going to be several years away as a decision was made two years ago to upgrade the Mowag fleet which is only starting to happen now and it will be at least another five years before the first Mowag replacement vehicles are entering service which may have a FSV variant in the first batch.

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            • Can someone refresh my memory? I know our MOWAG variants have 30mm as well as the 40mm grenade launcher. Are there any ATGM weapons on our vehicles? TOW, Milan etc? Surely thats a good way to up the firepower and still keep them as recce vehicles
              To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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              • Originally posted by HavocIRL View Post
                Can someone refresh my memory? I know our MOWAG variants have 30mm as well as the 40mm grenade launcher. Are there any ATGM weapons on our vehicles? TOW, Milan etc? Surely thats a good way to up the firepower and still keep them as recce vehicles
                The only ATGM in service is the Javelin which is an infantry shoulder fired weapon. Any ATGM armed vehicle should be in addition to the fleet and not as a FSV substitute. Kongsberg have built a Javelin capable dual weapon RWS which would be ideal.

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                • Originally posted by HavocIRL View Post
                  Can someone refresh my memory? I know our MOWAG variants have 30mm as well as the 40mm grenade launcher. Are there any ATGM weapons on our vehicles? TOW, Milan etc? Surely thats a good way to up the firepower and still keep them as recce vehicles
                  We never had TOW and the MILAN's have been replaced with FGM-148 Javelin. These are not vehicle mounted but could be carried inside a MOWAG. As for our MRV they are armed with a 30mm auto-cannon Mk44 in a Hitfist turret but they do not have a 40mm grenade MG. Those MOWAG's fitted with a RWS have either a 50cal M2HB or a 40mm GMG but not both.

                  I would love the upgrade to include the new MOOG RIWP as the number of options that could be installed are amazing. We could have a RWS with a Javelin, a 30mm cannon and a 40mm GMG or many other combination. Also the reloaded can be done from inside rather than have to go outside.
                  http://www.moog.com/markets/defense/...n-systems.html

                  http://www.moog.com/literature/Space_Defense/Defense_Literature/riwp_javelin_datasheet_500-1069_12232015.pdf

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                  • Although I like the idea of the 120mm Centauro 2, I know that on the MOWAG replacement thread there was a lot of discussion about its worth and if such a AFV fitted any need we have. There was also a lot of mis-understanding about what is direct fire support and indirect!!

                    Taking that we are looking at a replacement for the fire support role of the Scorpions and the AML9's could we go for something like the NEMO or AMOS systems? They are turreted mortars that can be fired in the traditional indirect but also in a direct mode. They have been fitted to AMV's which means they could go on a MOWAG or any other modern 8x8 such as the Timoney designed AV81 Terrex or CM32. I do favour the NEMO as those twin barrels just look the business!

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwDlOdLZVwY

                    Alternatively there is the CMI made CT-CV 105mm turret which has been installed on Polish versions of the AMV. Or the newer XC-8 turret which can have a 105mm or 120mm gun, both with autoloader.
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X65qPiRoGe0

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                    • I think fitting Javelins to a RWS in lieu of TOW/HOT/Spike NLOS is a bit like putting a steyr on a car because it's cheaper than a .5. I know it's more expensive to introduce new ord. into service but the increased range & payload could be worth it. One issue with cars with 105/90mm is that they could be treated like tanks when they are very much not tanks and would be in a world of hurt should they come across something like a T-55 or T-62. Buy a tank to do a tanks job not a big gunned APC.
                      Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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                      • Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
                        I think fitting Javelins to a RWS in lieu of TOW/HOT/Spike NLOS is a bit like putting a steyr on a car because it's cheaper than a .5. I know it's more expensive to introduce new ord. into service but the increased range & payload could be worth it. One issue with cars with 105/90mm is that they could be treated like tanks when they are very much not tanks and would be in a world of hurt should they come across something like a T-55 or T-62. Buy a tank to do a tanks job not a big gunned APC.
                        You're underestimating the capabilities of the Javelin, there is no armoured vehicle in existence that the Javelin can not destroy and the new Block 1 missiles have a 4,000m range.

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                        • TOW/HOT? Not fire and forget. Being able to bug out is very important in a vehicle of this type, not wait around for the enemy to be alerted.
                          Spike was evaluated by the Irish DF and Javelin did best in trials. Make what you will of that.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                          • MOD: Threads merged

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                            • When thinking of a replacement we must consider what role will it play? As far as I can recall the Scorpions have never been deployed abroad, neither to support a UN mission or as part of a Battlegroup training. The AML's on the other hand gave great service in UNIFIL even if they were outgunned by everything the IDF and their allies had. The Italians have sent some of their Centauro's to serve with UNIFIL.


                              If we want something that looks a bit more like a tank then there is the CV9040C from Sweden which was to Liberia when we deployed the AML's there.


                              And if something more powerful is needed then there is the CV90-120T variant, a modern light tank.


                              The big advantage of a CV90 family member is the low ground pressure of 0.5kg/cm2: which BAe System says "is designed to operate in snow and bogs"! The FV101 Scorpion has a ground pressure of 0.36kg/cm2, while a Leopard 2 has a value of 0.83kg/m2 and a man around 0.55 standing to 1.10 walking!

                              True you need a tank to do a tank's job but what job is that, we know the French sent 13 Leclerc tanks to UNIFIL but even the locals laughed at this. I remember seeing one old Lebanese man saying it was a waste of effort as UNIFIL had 13 tanks while the IDF had over 3000!!! If deploying tanks are to be a deterrent then there needs to be enough that no-one will mess with them.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by EUFighter; 1 March 2017, 05:47.

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                              • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                                You're underestimating the capabilities of the Javelin, there is no armoured vehicle in existence that the Javelin can not destroy and the new Block 1 missiles have a 4,000m range.
                                I'm not saying the javelin isn't capable, I'm merely questioning the merits of mounting a "man portable" weapon on a vehicle when there's other weapons that may have more range/payload due to not being designed with such weight constraints. Spike NLOS is 25km because it weights 70kg but it would be carried by the vehicle!o

                                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                TOW/HOT? Not fire and forget. Being able to bug out is very important in a vehicle of this type, not wait around for the enemy to be alerted.
                                Spike was evaluated by the Irish DF and Javelin did best in trials. Make what you will of that.
                                Fair enough on the fire & forget bit, the brits bought the Spike NLOS to use in Afghanistan to have something with more range, it's evolved a lot since we evaluated it. No chance of us buying an Israeli weapon system though.

                                Is this not a thing of beauty?



                                Eufighter none of your pics work
                                Last edited by The real Jack; 1 March 2017, 00:54.
                                Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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