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  • Your last line is a matter of inflation rather than VFM.

    Based on annual inflation increases, If P31 was built today, she would have cost €78m So €300m would only get you almost 4 P31s. Also don't forget P31 and her sisters were only supposed to cost £12m each.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

    Comment


    • Ireland is one of the richest nations per head of population in the EU and thus the world. If you just look at the rate at which the current property bubble has developed then you can see that finding the 2% should not be a problem if the political will was there. Also if every time something beyond the current capability is discussed it is shot down with the same resource/manning arguments then there can be no discussion on the needs.

      As pointed out the operation of a helicopter from a ship is to be considered at overall system level, the ship and helicopter have to taken together. The capability to launch and recover a helicopter from a ship needs the helicopter to have the capability and the ship also. On the helicopter side this means plenty of excess power, high floatation wheeled landing gear and a method to secure the helicopter to the ship such as a harpoon. On the ship side it needs to be able to provide a platform in terms of pitch and roll that the helicopter can cope with. Naturally in rough conditions we find the need for a compromise as you want the deck high enough that it does not get swamped by waves but not too high as it increases the amount of absolute roll. Then there needs to be something for the harpoon to attach to and a means to transfer a helicopter to a hanger should one be on board.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYzIWngs_T8
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3A_noXLzuo

      Looking at what is available it is easy to find two family offerings from yards not to far away.
      From DAMEN there is the OPV2 range of vessels with a number of large OPV's from 80m to 105m each of which can operate a suitable helicopter.
      http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/...-patrol-vessel

      Then there is Lurssen who offer 3 length variations of there OPV, from 80 to 90m
      http://www.luerssen-defence.com/cate...atrol-vessels/
      Last edited by EUFighter; 13 August 2017, 14:01.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
        Ireland is one of the richest nations per head of population in the EU and thus the world. If you just look at the rate at which the current property bubble has developed then you can see that finding the 2% should not be a problem if the political will was there. Also if every time something beyond the current capability is discussed it is shot down with the same resource/manning arguments then there can be no discussion on the needs.

        As pointed out the operation of a helicopter from a ship is to be considered at overall system level, the ship and helicopter have to taken together. The capability to launch and recover a helicopter from a ship needs the helicopter to have the capability and the ship also. On the helicopter side this means plenty of excess power, high floatation wheeled landing gear and a method to secure the helicopter to the ship such as a harpoon. On the ship side it needs to be able to provide a platform in terms of pitch and roll that the helicopter can cope with. Naturally in rough conditions we find the need for a compromise as you want the deck high enough that it does not get swamped by waves but not too high as it increases the amount of absolute roll. Then there needs to be something for the harpoon to attach to and a means to transfer a helicopter to a hanger should one be on board.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYzIWngs_T8
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3A_noXLzuo

        Looking at what is available it is easy to find two family offerings from yards not to far away.
        From DAMEN there is the OPV2 range of vessels with a number of large OPV's from 80m to 105m each of which can operate a suitable helicopter.
        http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/...-patrol-vessel

        Then there is Lurssen who offer 3 length variations of there OPV, from 80 to 90m
        http://www.luerssen-defence.com/cate...atrol-vessels/
        In the current socioeconomic and political environment is seeing the current budget for the DF prioritising equipment being over DF pay and strength. The result is that in the arena of being able to put aircraft in the air and naval vessels at sea we are at very serious risk of not being capable of being of utilising existing (never mind additional) assets. In the case of the AC, it has contributed to the loss of accidents (including a number of fatal ones).

        There is substantial pressure on public services across all departments due to lack of funds, we are talking about essential services like health, education, transport, communications, housing etc. Some of those are staff intensive and some are capital intensive. At the same time, we (the taxpayers) are demanding tax cuts. In the meantime, the biggest threat to the Irish economic since the 1930s is fast approaching, BREXIT.

        I'm not saying that we shouldn't invest more in defence but it needs to be prioritised and deliver VFM.

        You'll often find many of the OPVs are geared towards the Middle East kind of region than the North Atlantic.

        With regard to the MRV design, my 2 cents are it is essential that it has a helideck capable of taking min 1 medium lift helo. If funds are available it should have a hanger but in all likelyhood it won't be a DF helo on the deck or if it is it won't be there for long. The deck can therefore be used for vehicles, containers etc when it is unlikely to be used.

        Comment


        • Cost of ships

          Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
          Your last line is a matter of inflation rather than VFM.

          Based on annual inflation increases, If P31 was built today, she would have cost €78m So €300m would only get you almost 4 P31s. Also don't forget P31 and her sisters were only supposed to cost £12m each.
          The price of P31 less Government Furnished Equipment was 24 Million equivalent in various currencies. The other vessels started at 1million for P 20 and about 5million for P21 and so on but subsidised by EU funding. The P31 cost using 1983 to 2017 is 24m X2.5= 60million. As I said it is relative to the time of purchase and VFM must include it's ability to contribute to Defence and not just ATCP/ Fisheries.

          Comment


          • Have the EU provided any funds since Eithne?

            Comment


            • I very much doubt the govt will raise Defence spending as % of GxP to fund any of this unless severe political pressure from the EU26 others, or the Brexit forces some hands.
              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

              Comment


              • Back in the early 80's we were setting the benchmark with the Eithne class, it is something others have followed and developed. They have taken some lessons from our experience and their own experience and developed patrol ships suitable for the operation of helicopters.
                It would seem the only people who didn't learn from the experience was us......but then again we did, we learned that it wasn't feasible to operate another arm of states helo, when they themselves were compromised in what they were expected to do with the type, without having full control of that asset on a vessel which was very much limited in size to that type of helo and that having one vessel to do was so was a hugely limiting factor.

                Was Eithne VFM, as a multifunction learning platform yes.

                As a helicopter capable vessel. No Heli ops had ceased within 6 years of the first landing

                With regard to the MRV design, my 2 cents are it is essential that it has a helideck capable of taking min 1 medium lift helo. If funds are available it should have a hanger but in all likelyhood it won't be a DF helo on the deck or if it is it won't be there for long. The deck can therefore be used for vehicles, containers etc when it is unlikely to be used
                Absolutely!

                if the political will was there
                At the root of all the problems within the DF, The state failed after WW2 to move on and the DF has suffered as a result ever since.

                The also need to be paid SAR allowance, naval pay and PDA while at sea.
                The rules and regulations around the payment of PDA is quite straight forward and only those whose unit is the vessel could be paid PDA, those on attachment are not paid PDA..even for NS people

                Naval Pay...whats this...am I due back pay?
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  The rules and regulations around the payment of PDA is quite straight forward and only those whose unit is the vessel could be paid PDA, those on attachment are not paid PDA..even for NS people
                  so if someone from a shore appointment is detached to a vessel due to crew shortages they don't get PDA ??

                  No wonder they have such wastage!!!

                  No wonder the AC didn't play (€45 a day gross)

                  Naval Pay...whats this...am I due back pay?
                  Princely sum of €2.76 gross a day

                  Comment


                  • I commented in the migrants thread that steel and air is cheap before bods jumped in saying you need fuel handling and extra radars/whatever. My point was that it'll be a massive mistake if the EPV is not fitted for & not with Helos, all you have to do is leave room for the necessary stores & handling equipment. The deck can be used for Cargo, the hanger could be used for anything but it's an awful lot cheaper to design the ship for a future capability than have to drydock it to make it longer. ( Yes I know i'm oversimplifying but the ships designers do this for a living so should be able to figure it out)

                    If the only purpose of the NS is fisheries patrol what's the point in the white elephant gun on the front? A 8 or 9 ship fleet that's purpose is to "protect" irish fish stocks for an industry that's a rounding error in the Irish economy to help the poor tax dodging illegal immigrant employing drug trafficking fishermen. If the main mission is now ferrying migrants across the med just buy a ferry and dock in Libya.

                    We all have heard ad nauseam about the Eithne experiment disaster but how is it that the NS is the only operator of grey ships that thinks they're pointless? What good is a NS ship on any op apart from the med when their only means of moving bods is a RHIB? I looked at the ships involve in the Nato counter piracy mission and I struggled to find one without a hangar. This conversation has happened many times before , 64 pages later have any tender docs even been drawn up? MM will sail off into retirement with a NS undermanned and still devoid of aviation capabilities - all the NS guys had so much hope for his tenure here!

                    These are shorter than the dead writers class and can take a whirlybird, some even got involved in the counter piracy patrols
                    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
                      I commented in the migrants thread that steel and air is cheap before bods jumped in saying you need fuel handling and extra radars/whatever. My point was that it'll be a massive mistake if the EPV is not fitted for & not with Helos, all you have to do is leave room for the necessary stores & handling equipment. The deck can be used for Cargo, the hanger could be used for anything but it's an awful lot cheaper to design the ship for a future capability than have to drydock it to make it longer. ( Yes I know i'm oversimplifying but the ships designers do this for a living so should be able to figure it out)

                      If the only purpose of the NS is fisheries patrol what's the point in the white elephant gun on the front? A 8 or 9 ship fleet that's purpose is to "protect" irish fish stocks for an industry that's a rounding error in the Irish economy to help the poor tax dodging illegal immigrant employing drug trafficking fishermen. If the main mission is now ferrying migrants across the med just buy a ferry and dock in Libya.

                      We all have heard ad nauseam about the Eithne experiment disaster but how is it that the NS is the only operator of grey ships that thinks they're pointless? What good is a NS ship on any op apart from the med when their only means of moving bods is a RHIB? I looked at the ships involve in the Nato counter piracy mission and I struggled to find one without a hangar. This conversation has happened many times before , 64 pages later have any tender docs even been drawn up? MM will sail off into retirement with a NS undermanned and still devoid of aviation capabilities - all the NS guys had so much hope for his tenure here!

                      These are shorter than the dead writers class and can take a whirlybird, some even got involved in the counter piracy patrols
                      There are other Tenders due as well, and he has overseen (at least partially) the most expensive defence purchases in the history of the State (ie the Writer class).

                      Comment


                      • A cynic might say they don't want helicopters because it would mean fewer hulls.

                        Comment


                        • Yeah plus a new aviation division/transplants from the don means more competition for cushy appointments.
                          Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

                          Comment


                          • so if someone from a shore appointment is detached to a vessel due to crew shortages they don't get PDA
                            Don't know what the criteria is these days, but back in the day unless you were posted to a ship you didn't get PDA...and the ship had to be on a recognised patrol to get that.

                            Patrol Duty Allowance back in the 1980s was 5 pounds and Five pence..per day!!!!

                            We all have heard ad nauseam about the Eithne experiment disaster but how is it that the NS is the only operator of grey ships that thinks they're pointless?
                            I would suggest that it is pointless if you don't have a helo to operate and there isn't an option to operate one on the horizon.

                            The concept is sound enough but the reality being its not going to happen as long as the AC buy helos that are non compatible with ships and not even the slightest effort was made to have them compatible.

                            Yes given the role of the NS is expanding beyond territorial waters and the proposal for an MRV may become a reality then it should facilitate a heli deck and fueling facilities.

                            If that works and gets regular use then future builds should potential include heli facilities. If not having heli capacity was the cost of having extra ships..so be it. Ships have 30 years plus life span. if you don't get them in the water to replace aging assets you may never get them.

                            Should we have lost a ship because of a tennis court on each of the others....given the use it would get..certainly not!
                            Last edited by hptmurphy; 13 August 2017, 22:22.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Have the EU provided any funds since Eithne?
                              €12 million between 2014-2020 towards Casa and ships replacement and upgrades.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                                €12 million between 2014-2020 towards Casa and ships replacement and upgrades.
                                Is that per year or just a once off lump sum?

                                Comment

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