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  • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    They could have googled it and saved them selves a journey!
    I gather there was less focus in the vessel being the reason for the visit but more focus in the operational methodology in using an amphibious sealift vessel. In other words not the actual specific platform but the concept of operations of such a platform and how across the shore logistical support of a land element was being conducted.

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    • Mrv options

      Originally posted by Anzac View Post
      I gather there was less focus in the vessel being the reason for the visit but more focus in the operational methodology in using an amphibious sealift vessel. In other words not the actual specific platform but the concept of operations of such a platform and how across the shore logistical support of a land element was being conducted.
      .

      While not dictating the geography, or outfit of a specific platform, it is wise to have a concept of the ship required in a dimensional and operational sea keeping sense. What will be my maximum load? Can I put it safely ashore/ or load it on board. What self handling gear do I need and tonnages to be moved. Proven or updated designs are good as they have achieved the test of time. Built now they would still be NEW ships with todays technology.
      I like the dimensional aspects of the Italian LP SAN GIUSTO , she can lift at least half a Battalion, carry 20+ trucks on deck, flight deck can handle an assortment of helicopters, she trains naval students at all levels, and has been tweaked to flagship level for Op. Sophia. She is on the Dims. at 131mx 20m x 6m. Speed 20 knots.

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      • And the version for the Algerian Navy even carries a 76, so we can use it as an OPV if we want

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        • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
          And the version for the Algerian Navy even carries a 76, so we can use it as an OPV if we want
          At a price of around €400m

          And a crew of around 150 (fully manned)

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          • And at least 3 heli spots too many.
            A fine vessel but overkill for our requirements, in particular when the rest of the fleet are of Basic OPV design.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
              And at least 3 heli spots too many.
              A fine vessel but overkill for our requirements, in particular when the rest of the fleet are of Basic OPV design.
              Don't replicate fit out. Design to run with reduced crew, but augmentable by role or theater of operations. An MRV is going to be bigger if envisaged tasks are to be catered for in the future. The San Giusto is within our stated dimensions. I would include all FCS and Radars.

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              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                Don't replicate fit out. Design to run with reduced crew, but augmentable by role or theater of operations. An MRV is going to be bigger if envisaged tasks are to be catered for in the future. The San Giusto is within our stated dimensions. I would include all FCS and Radars.
                Ok, but it is not what we want, no more so than if you were showing a container ship with similar dimensions.
                While we hould have developed a huge capability upgrade, it would be a capability we would not require.
                The key for our ships is firstly to provide crew comfort. Even though that ship is designed for light crewing, there does not appear to be much in the way of space for crew accommodation.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                  Ok, but it is not what we want, no more so than if you were showing a container ship with similar dimensions.
                  While we hould have developed a huge capability upgrade, it would be a capability we would not require.
                  The key for our ships is firstly to provide crew comfort. Even though that ship is designed for light crewing, there does not appear to be much in the way of space for crew accommodation.
                  Although crew comfort is important we are talking about a warship and above everything is capability. The focus should be on how well any design can complete a mission. Within that matrix crew comfort is a factor but it is not the most important.

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                  • like the dimensional aspects of the Italian LP SAN GIUSTO , she can lift at least half a Battalion, carry 20+ trucks on deck, flight deck can handle an assortment of helicopters, she trains naval students at all levels, and has been tweaked to flagship level for Op. Sophia. She is on the Dims. at 131mx 20m x 6m. Speed 20 knots.
                    And we discussed the same vessel about 12 months ago and you weren't in favour of it then?????
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                      Although crew comfort is important we are talking about a warship and above everything is capability. The focus should be on how well any design can complete a mission. Within that matrix crew comfort is a factor but it is not the most important.
                      Has zero capability if it can’t put to Sea because there are no crew

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                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        At a price of around €400m

                        And a crew of around 150 (fully manned)
                        The Algerian ship has a frigate's sensor suite and 16 Aster 15. We don't need that

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                        • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                          The Algerian ship has a frigate's sensor suite and 16 Aster 15. We don't need that
                          So what's your suggestion? We buy a ship that is clearly for amphibious type operations (and could have a significant number of DF personnel on board for a mission) and hope that if it's ever deployed in an unstable area that either a) somebody comes along to protect it for us or b) paint it white and hope nobody throws a missile at it?

                          It comes back to the core issue of the EPV/MRV for me, if we are talking about something that's going to be doing more EU/UN operations out of EEZ in areas of instability then it's almost insane to talk about spending 200 million plus on it and then not having her fitted for defence, but that means it won't be 200 million either.

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                          • Thats the problem here.
                            While it may be possible to get a LHA or LPD within the dimensions or budget required, without the rest of the fleet being able to provide a similar layer of defence it is a waste of time because you cannot deploy it anywhere dangerous unless you are in theater with another nations navy with the right type of heavily armed vessel.
                            We have a fleet of 8 OPVs, none of which is armed with anything heavier than a 76 mm cannon, none of which has air defence radar, let alone missiles or chaff launchers.
                            What we actually appear to be looking for here is an OPV, that has some extra space aboard for carrying a small number of vehicles or military cargo to a secure location. Maybe even deploy to Bere Island without having to rely on Mr Murphy's ferry, for starters.
                            Baby steps.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              And we discussed the same vessel about 12 months ago and you weren't in favour of it then?????
                              At the time the dimensions hadn't been set. The San Giusto is the size being conjectured and we have links with the Italian navy. However it doesn't preclude other choices, once RFT outline Specs are met.

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                              • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                ..without the rest of the fleet being able to provide a similar layer of defence it is a waste of time because you cannot deploy it anywhere dangerous unless you are in theater with another nations navy with the right type of heavily armed vessel....
                                i would have thought that the vessel being in-theatre with other nations FF/DD's (as well as AOR's, and other amphibious/support vessels) was a given - not least because whatever capabilities the EPV/MRV ends up with aren't going to amount to much on their own. it needs a baseline capability in order to go to dodgy places and to be able to contribute, but it doesn't need to be able to do everything because it will be with other ships, all of which, together, complete the jigsaw.

                                the kind of ops it might partake in - non-combattant evacuations in the eastern and southern Med, counter-trafficing/terrorism, amphibious/littoral support for EU/UN land ops etc.. would certainly have a Theatre Entry Standard of, say CIWS and softkill DAS, but each individual vessel doesn't need to also have area air defence and mine detection gear.

                                i also don't see why - or to be frank - how, anyone would be looking at deploying two NS vessels on such an op: its the MRV that would be providing the capability in such operations, bringing a sparcely equipped OPV as well when there will be French/German/Italian/Danish/Swedish FF/DD's in attendance is just a fuel wasting exercise in national feel good, it wouldn't actually contribute much.

                                buy a single vessel for overseas operations, equip it to a baseline where it can participate and meaningfully contribute, and accept that area air defence - like AOR, and ASW, MCM and all the rest, will be provided by the other members of the task group - just as the nation that sends an FF will accept that the amphibious/log spt tasks will be carried out by, in this case, Ireland.

                                steel is cheap and air is free - no captain in history ever said 'i wish my flight deck was smaller'.

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