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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • Britten-Norman Defender:

    ‘Typical Basic Airframe Price:
    Defender $2m.
    Caravan II $2.5-$3m.
    Casa 235 $6m.’
    Notes: Take-off/land (rough) c.365m/310m., Altitude 7,620m, 6 hr. missions to c.8 hrs., Max. cruise 326kph. Nose & 4x wing mounts, radar,. 2x 400hp turbo-prop.s (Rolls-R/Allison), 11 pax. max.
    http://www.spyflight.co.uk/defender.htm (notes £10m for 3, in 2003, w. ISR and defensive aids)


    *Cessna 208B/Caravan/EX:
    The Cessna Caravan has consistently defined versatility and performance. Operators around the world depend on the Caravan and have been rewarded with unparalleled reliability.

    (note: prototype Cessna ‘Denali’ (pressurised?), 8-11 pax, altitude 9,449m, max. cruise 519kph)
    The Philippine air force is on the verge of receiving two Cessna 208B Caravans equipped for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaisance (ISR) missions.

    (ISR aircraft, via US government, for countries with insurgencies - Chad, Cameroon, Niger, Philippines)
    Philippine Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said the aircraft will be used to conduct patrols off the waters surrounding the country.

    (Note news item: c.$40m. Contract for ISR equipment and training for 6 aircraft and, c.$14m for extra ISR for same 6 aircraft... i.e. circa $6.6m, and $2.3m per plane, for ISR equipment & training).
    Note (EX): Take-off/land 658m/570m, Range 1,785km, Useful load 1,675kg, Max. cruise speed 361kph., Altitude 7,620m. Belly mounts, 1x 867shp (P&W) turboprop, 14 pax. max.
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Comment


    • Pilatus PC-12 NG Spectre:

      Founded in 1939, Pilatus Aircraft Ltd is the only Swiss company to develop, produce and sell aircraft to customers around the world: from the legendary PC-6 to the best-selling PC-12 and PC-24, and the PC-21, the military training system of the future.

      Note: ...basic Spectre ‘enabled’ PC-12NG from $0.65m... & EO/IR sensor quoted case-by-case.
      Swiss aircraft manufacturer Pilatus Aircraft is displaying the Spectre, a variant of its popular PC-12 NG single-engine turboprop reconfigured for ISR.

      (note news item: ability to operate from unimproved strips, retractable EO/IR in tail cone, loiter of +8hrs, ISR version c. $0.5m more in 2011 than standard plane).
      Note: Take-off/land 793m/661m, Range 3,417km, Max load 1,024kg, Max. cruise speed 528kph., Altitude 9,144m. Tail cone mount, 1x 1,200shp (P&W) turboprop, 9 pax. max.

      *Beechcraft King Air 350ER:
      When government, military and commercial customers want airborne solutions for critical missions, they turn to BEECHCRAFT. Our aircraft provide the high performance and flight characteristics required to address the unique challenges of special mission operations.

      The MC-12W Liberty aircraft is an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft of the United States Air Force (USAF) acquired…

      L-3 Communications is ready to offer its all-new Spydr II to international buyers, with the Beechcraft King Air 350ER-derived surveillance aircraft having made its debut appearance at the Farnborough air show.

      Notes: Take-off/land 1,237m/831m, Max +12 hrs, Ferry range 4,945km, Max. useful load 3,241kg., max. cruise 561kph., Altitude 10,668m. Nose mount (retractable EO/IR), belly, & wing tip mounts, 2x 1,150shp (P&W) turbo-prop.s, 11 pax. max.

      *Cessna and Beechcraft part of Textron that also includes Hawker (Citation) business jets.

      Comment


      • The Maths!... AC tender = €15m for three ISR planes (@ €5m p/plane).
        ...PC-12 @ c.€4.25m basic each = €12.75 for 3 = €2.25m surplus for ISR bits (€0.75m ISR per plane).
        Defender @ c.€2.5m(?) basic = €7.5 for 3 = €7.5m surplus for ISR bits (€2.5m ISR per plane).
        King Air ER@ €.8.25m basic each, is €24.75m for 3 = No surplus for ISR bits (€0 ISR per plane).

        Alternative ?: One King Air ER for c.€.8.25m, and c.€5m for two Defenders, total = c.€13.25m; with c.€1.75m surplus for ISR stuff (c. €0.58m ISR per plane) = still little leftover for ISR set-up.
        Last edited by WhingeNot; 17 September 2017, 02:12. Reason: meant PC-12 (prop') not PC-24 biz. jet!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
          As long as the secondary role (fancy transport) is of primary importance, the PC-24 looks like it would be best...

          Just very little money left over for ISR after that, when millions seem to be required for such, and the tender specification for single engine and pressurised aircraft seems to most, to be strangely specific, and more importantly out-of-character for ISR aircraft. Below is a list of the usual ISR suspects, and costs, for comparisons...
          I am really impressed with this aircraft from Pilatus.





          The Royal Flying Doctor Service has selected them to replace some of their King Airs and XP-8000's and they are a long standing organization who know what they are doing and what they are after. They fly 32 PC-12's by the way and have a fleet of 70 aircraft.

          If there had of been a proposal to consolidate IAC the fleet (Like what my lot are intending the next King Air lease to do) into a small multi-role platform that can swing through VIP, SAR, light airlift, MEPT, AWOT and tier 2 Maritime Surveillance / ISTAR - the special missions variant is a very solid contender.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            I am really impressed with this aircraft from Pilatus.





            The Royal Flying Doctor Service has selected them to replace some of their King Airs and XP-8000's and they are a long standing organization who know what they are doing and what they are after. They fly 32 PC-12's by the way and have a fleet of 70 aircraft.

            If there had of been a proposal to consolidate IAC the fleet (Like what my lot are intending the next King Air lease to do) into a small multi-role platform that can swing through VIP, SAR, light airlift, MEPT, AWOT and tier 2 Maritime Surveillance / ISTAR - the special missions variant is a very solid contender.
            They are still not flying over water

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
              They are still not flying over water
              If flying over water with one engine is a big problem, why is the Royal navy buying single engine F-35's to operate from aircraft carriers? And previously operated single engined Harriers in the same role?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                They are still not flying over water
                Wrong. Do you think that it is somehow magically not possible or don't know that Australia with its 8000 island has ten populated islands offshore greater than 1000 km2 in size let alone Lord Howe, Christmas, Norfolk, Torres and Tasmania.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                  They are still not flying over water
                  He's advocating the PC24 not the PC12.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                    He's advocating the PC24 not the PC12.
                    sorry, that makes sense. 8.9 M$ a pop.

                    Comment


                    • I come back to the question: Why the insistence on Swiss? Did I not read on this forum that we can't deploy the PC-9s internationally because of contract restrictions with Pilatus? Why would we want that?

                      Mind you, I just looked at the PC-24 and I agree with the impressedness. Especially at the price.
                      Last edited by Graylion; 14 September 2017, 12:22. Reason: update

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                        I come back to the question: Why the insistence on Swiss? Did I not read on this forum that we can't deploy the PC-9s internationally because of contract restrictions with Pilatus? Why would we want that?

                        Mind you, I just looked at the PC-24 and I agree with the impressedness. Especially at the price.
                        Afaik there is no contractual limitations from the Swiss as to their use. Swiss weapons sales legislation is very strict however
                        (Which is strange considering they are one of the biggest arms exporters in the world), I seem to recall (possibly incorrectly) that the weapons integration on our PC9s was not done in Switzerland (Austria/Germany???).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                          I come back to the question: Why the insistence on Swiss? Did I not read on this forum that we can't deploy the PC-9s internationally because of contract restrictions with Pilatus? Why would we want that?...

                          Oh Graylion...

                          Think about the attitudes of successive generations of Irish politicians and senior civil servants towards both the DF and the prospect of actually using them

                          Then ask yourself whether an Irish politician would think it a good thing or a bad thing that every time some bright spark suggests doing something expensive, difficult, politically dangerous and possibly election losing, he or she can say 'i'd love too, but unfortunately our equipment suppliers have forbidden us from using this stuff overseas - how sad...'

                          Personally I think that the likelihood of such a clause is zero - unless Pilatus are the only aircraft manufacturers in the world determined to go bankrupt.

                          Comment


                          • I recall something about an African country getting a finger wag from Pilatus, who said "thou shalt not use the PC-7 in a fighty manner!", at which they were politely told to eff off, as the Islamic jihadi hordes were being incomvenient and needed strafing. The Swiss would be raging hypocrites if they tried to ban combat used of an armed aircraft, given their willingness to sell SIGs to all and sundry.

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                            • Just look at our procurement history:

                              Mowag LAVs that are x% better than the middle of the road American/Canadian LAVs from General Dynamics for y% more € with parts and support costing z% more €

                              Expensive Austrian rifles that were a mare to upgrade for x% more reliability than y% cheaper ARs from the US that'll go bang just as often as you need them to for 99.9% of the time.

                              Then theres the swiss planes for training airbus drivers

                              We're addicted to buying gold plated European kit made by low volume manufacturers!
                              Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                                I recall something about an African country getting a finger wag from Pilatus, who said "thou shalt not use the PC-7 in a fighty manner!", at which they were politely told to eff off, as the Islamic jihadi hordes were being incomvenient and needed strafing. The Swiss would be raging hypocrites if they tried to ban combat used of an armed aircraft, given their willingness to sell SIGs to all and sundry.
                                SIG is a German company

                                Comment

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