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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
    In terms of the question of hull numbers, just reading on a different thing altogether I see the German's ran one of their K130's on a deployment for over 500 days, swapping out the crews but leaving the hull deployed, and I think this is their plan for some of their larger designs going forward. I know the USN tried it but dropped it due to issues, wonder how the German's have viewed it?
    Radical thinking would say deploy Eithne for the duration and rotate the crew

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    • #47
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Radical thinking would say deploy Eithne for the duration and rotate the crew
      Wouldn't it make more sense to use one of the P60's for that given the crews that use the same design rather than the one off hull?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
        In terms of the question of hull numbers, just reading on a different thing altogether I see the German's ran one of their K130's on a deployment for over 500 days, swapping out the crews but leaving the hull deployed, and I think this is their plan for some of their larger designs going forward. I know the USN tried it but dropped it due to issues, wonder how the German's have viewed it?
        I have some doubts about a 500 day deployment especially for a K130 class, more likely it was deployed and broke down for 500 days!

        The newest German ships the F125 Stabilisation Frigates are being design for 2 year deployment with 210 days each year at sea. This means that for 40% of the deployment time they will be in a port for maintenance/repairs/resupply. And hence not available for operations, if continuous operations are to be achieved 2 vessels have to be deployed. In addition the F125's are deployed with an endurance of 35 days, that is not just something which effects the amount of fuel and stores but also the amount of running maintenance that can be carried out while at sea. Our vessels are design for just 21 days which mean a lot more has to be done in port rather than at sea. This is one of the reasons why the crews can be keep small. And the need for maintenance should not be underestimated even with just a 21 day patrol the engines will have more than double the hours that the average family car achieves in a year!

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        • #49
          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          I have some doubts about a 500 day deployment especially for a K130 class, more likely it was deployed and broke down for 500 days!

          The newest German ships the F125 Stabilisation Frigates are being design for 2 year deployment with 210 days each year at sea. This means that for 40% of the deployment time they will be in a port for maintenance/repairs/resupply. And hence not available for operations, if continuous operations are to be achieved 2 vessels have to be deployed. In addition the F125's are deployed with an endurance of 35 days, that is not just something which effects the amount of fuel and stores but also the amount of running maintenance that can be carried out while at sea. Our vessels are design for just 21 days which mean a lot more has to be done in port rather than at sea. This is one of the reasons why the crews can be keep small. And the need for maintenance should not be underestimated even with just a 21 day patrol the engines will have more than double the hours that the average family car achieves in a year!
          This is a quote of the article, though as you say it doesn't shed any light on the port/operational ratio's:
          German Navy corvette ‘Erfurt’ returned to her homeport in Warnemünde, Germany on June 11 after a 17-month deployment.

          Having a ship spend 17 months deployed without returning home was important for the German Navy as it was able to test the ‘intensive use’ principle for the corvettes where four crews man one ship.

          The K 130 corvette sailed out in January 2015 and took part in the UNIFIL and Operation Atalanta missions. During this period, the corvette sailed 74.000 nautical miles.

          As the ship sailed into Warnemünde, sailors from the crew “Delta” currently onboard Erfurt put up a banner which read ‘4 crews 1 unit’ to emphasize the unity of the squadron.

          The 90-meter K 130-class corvette, was commissioned in 2013 and joined the German 1st Corvette-squadron as the fourth of five ships in the class.

          Designed for operation in coastal waters, the corvettes augment the capabilities of fast attack boats and frigates. They are equipped with two 27 mm Mauser MLG27 remote-controlled, fully-automatic cannons, and one OTO Melara 76 mm gun.

          The corvettes are also fitted with a helicopter landing deck and use the Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) – guided naval missile for close-in defence of ships against anti-ship missiles, aircraft, helicopters and surface threats.
          The German's must be happy with the class though as they are adding an extra 5 hulls...

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            Wouldn't it make more sense to use one of the P60's for that given the crews that use the same design rather than the one off hull?
            it would, if the P60's were much of an asset to the op - but no flight deck, and bugger all self-protection means that while they are by no means just a drain on resources and require protection, you're not going to have the force generation team (and the governments they are from, which if we're honest is one of the drivers in this..) leaping for joy and sticking money behind the bar.

            with an AOR on the other hand...

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
              This is a quote of the article, though as you say it doesn't shed any light on the port/operational ratio's:

              The German's must be happy with the class though as they are adding an extra 5 hulls...
              Good to know, I have found the original report http://www.marine.de/portal/a/marine...A0IEENH55IHGP4

              But again just as I said with the F125 it was not at sea for 500 days, it was deployed for 500 days, this is nothing new. We only have to look at what the old RN used to do, they deployed all over the world for 2 years at a time. But it means that your support functions also have to deploy, this would mean not just the crews would go out but also the necessary base personnel also.

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              • #52
                One of the Trafalgar class SSN's did 10 months in the last few years, and i don't doubt others have done similar deployments since. HMS Clyde does several year deployments while based out of the FI - sticking a ship in the Med for 6 months should not be outwith the wit of man...

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                  it would, if the P60's were much of an asset to the op - but no flight deck, and bugger all self-protection means that while they are by no means just a drain on resources and require protection, you're not going to have the force generation team (and the governments they are from, which if we're honest is one of the drivers in this..) leaping for joy and sticking money behind the bar.

                  with an AOR on the other hand...
                  Oh sure, if we are talking about a future hull that would make sense without question, I just meant in terms of what we actually have at the moment (ie if we were deploying tomorrow) then a P60 would make more sense to me of the hulls we have, I mean Eithne doesn't have any clear advantages with even the deck not usable.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    Good to know, I have found the original report
                    But again just as I said with the F125 it was not at sea for 500 days, it was deployed for 500 days, this is nothing new. We only have to look at what the old RN used to do, they deployed all over the world for 2 years at a time. But it means that your support functions also have to deploy, this would mean not just the crews would go out but also the necessary base personnel also.
                    While at the same time from memory the USN dropped such programs for crew swapping on the Burkes (seem to remember that the material state of the ship being used as a testbed ended up in a poorer condition compared to others) and they've abandoned it for the LCS program.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                      Wouldn't it make more sense to use one of the P60's for that given the crews that use the same design rather than the one off hull?
                      Just an example

                      Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                      The newest German ships the F125 Stabilisation Frigates are being design for 2 year deployment with 210 days each year at sea. This means that for 40% of the deployment time they will be in a port for maintenance/repairs/resupply.
                      The NS fleet pre-economic crash were doing 210 patrol days annually, 28 days annual refit, they were out of the water for 2 weeks every 3 years or so. Not sure of the benefits (or not), but a lot of navies do refits lasting months (or longer!!) but are less frequent. The NS deployments are more or less permanent (or be it in home waters).

                      Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                      it would, if the P60's were much of an asset to the op - but no flight deck, and bugger all self-protection means that while they are by no means just a drain on resources and require protection, you're not going to have the force generation team (and the governments they are from, which if we're honest is one of the drivers in this..) leaping for joy and sticking money behind the bar.
                      again just using Eithne as an example

                      Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                      While at the same time from memory the USN dropped such programs for crew swapping on the Burkes (seem to remember that the material state of the ship being used as a testbed ended up in a poorer condition compared to others) and they've abandoned it for the LCS program.
                      Whatever about the NS establishment, the NS strength isn't high enough

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Just an example



                        The NS fleet pre-economic crash were doing 210 patrol days annually, 28 days annual refit, they were out of the water for 2 weeks every 3 years or so. Not sure of the benefits (or not), but a lot of navies do refits lasting months (or longer!!) but are less frequent. The NS deployments are more or less permanent (or be it in home waters).

                        again just using Eithne as an example



                        Whatever about the NS establishment, the NS strength isn't high enough
                        The Naval establishments, because of ships, is made up of many special skilled trades to keep the ship running efficiently. Using back to back crews to keep a ship on station can lead to a gradual melt down of reliability due to long fingering a repair or leaving it to your relief hoping he might do it. Ships can be kept on station by partial crew reliefs , half and half, and also using an adjacent friendly port to carry out shut down repairs such as Valetta or even Gibraltar. The costs would largely be relief Air Fares unless a Casa type plane could be used. Valletta and Gibraltar have Dockyard facilities.

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                        • #57
                          The RAN introduced their Armidale patrol boats with three crews per boat to keep up the tempo, then changed to one crew. Anyone know why?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                            The RAN introduced their Armidale patrol boats with three crews per boat to keep up the tempo, then changed to one crew. Anyone know why?
                            Could be because the rode those hulls into the ground already? Seem to remember apart from material defects (think one compartment had to be ruled off limits during operations due to poisonous leaks, don't know if they fixed that), the decision in regards to intercepting refugee boats meant the sea time was increased substantially.

                            Haven't they started the replacement program for those hulls already?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              The Naval establishments, because of ships, is made up of many special skilled trades to keep the ship running efficiently. Using back to back crews to keep a ship on station can lead to a gradual melt down of reliability due to long fingering a repair or leaving it to your relief hoping he might do it.
                              On that note:

                              After every flight, pilots fill out a form, called a “gripe sheet” which tells mechanics about problems with the aircraft. The mechanics correct the problems; document their repairs on the form, and then pilots review the gripe sheets before the next flight. Never let it be said that ground crews lack a sense of humor. […]

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                The Naval establishments, because of ships, is made up of many special skilled trades to keep the ship running efficiently. Using back to back crews to keep a ship on station can lead to a gradual melt down of reliability due to long fingering a repair or leaving it to your relief hoping he might do it. Ships can be kept on station by partial crew reliefs , half and half, and also using an adjacent friendly port to carry out shut down repairs such as Valetta or even Gibraltar. The costs would largely be relief Air Fares unless a Casa type plane could be used. Valletta and Gibraltar have Dockyard facilities.
                                From memory that's what the USN found doing "Sea Swap" with the Burkes, however it does seem that the German's think they can do it without significant impacts.

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