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  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
    flags that burn and sink convince no one - a bitter lesson we have learned, and at grevious cost.
    Ships deprived of their designed assets such as speed , maneuver, clear lines of sight ,clear arcs of fire, and unobstructed Radar detection are always prone to being repeatedly hit.

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    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      Ships deprived of their designed assets such as speed , maneuver, clear lines of sight ,clear arcs of fire, and unobstructed Radar detection are always prone to being repeatedly hit.
      ships that don't have things, or have cheap things instead of expensive things, because someone prefers 6 sparsely equipped hulls to 4 well equipped ones, burn and sink.

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      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        flags that burn and sink convince no one - a bitter lesson we have learned, and at grevious cost.
        And flags that can just fly means less hulls that can do everything else. I mean which would have been better, the Type 26 not turning into a budget monster and getting a 1 for 1 replacement of the 23's, or what we have with the reduced order and the 31's whose value, capabilities etc are going to be less? One of the reasons why the RN resisted the "Black Swan" idea or the OPV+ was the fear of the politicians pointing to them as "full warships" rather than the limited hulls they would be.

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        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          And flags that can just fly means less hulls that can do everything else. I mean which would have been better, the Type 26 not turning into a budget monster and getting a 1 for 1 replacement of the 23's, or what we have with the reduced order and the 31's whose value, capabilities etc are going to be less? One of the reasons why the RN resisted the "Black Swan" idea or the OPV+ was the fear of the politicians pointing to them as "full warships" rather than the limited hulls they would be.
          i rather fear that in the end, the current T26/T31 mix is going to cost as much as the original T26 buy but with less capability.

          i'm less concerned about T31 per se, its not T26 but we don't have to go far back to see the UK govt taking RN advice about the survivability/warfighting cabability of a projected class of ship and sending it back to the drawing board. i'd put some money on the T31's that go down the slipway being rather less austere than is projected - not a T26, but not an OPV either.

          one thing that needs to be understood with the T26 budget-monster thing, as with the Carriers, and the T45's is that the reason they became budget monsters is that CS put so much effort into trying to reduce the cost. T45 didn't cost £1 billion a piece because of whats in them, they cost £1bn each because once the design was finalised, politicians and CS spent years and endless millions doing studies on whether you could shave this or that £m off the cost. had they been built at the agreed drumbeat and when the design was finished, we'd have got 10 for the price we eventually paid for 6. same story with the carriers - kicked the can down the road for so long that the price of two eventually topped the price we'd have paid for 3 had we just built the bloody things when the yard was ready.

          T31 is going the same way - so many redesigns and requirement work that sooner or later the price of 8 T26 and 5/6 T31 will get to the price of 13 T26...

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          • The RFI for the Type 31e Light Frigate is now released.



            Appendix F has the meat and potato's ..... not that it is really all that appetising.

            This is just a big Corvette to be honest.
            Last edited by Anzac; 18 September 2017, 15:52.

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            • The contenders in detail.. at the DSEI fair... and note the US LCS125 in the last segment as a comparison etc.

              Coverage of the naval zone at DSEI 2017, with a focus on the Royal Navy Type 31 programme:- Babcock Arrowhead frigate design for Type 31- Steller Systems Sp...

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              • The continued decline in British Maritime output, at all levels, both Manpower and ship types, started with closures of the iconic British (and one Irish Shipping) Companies in the 1980's, followed by the closures of great yards that built both the Merchant Fleet and the Royal Navy. Building anything became more difficult and prolonged as both Civil Service and Politicians set about reducing Defence Budgets trying to do more with less. Tri-Service sharing concepts, one stop shops, shared Command structures led to pressures within Services to get a share of shrinking Budgets. The current shrinkage is critical for the RN given the unit costs of ship types. There is a question as to whether British Yards and Defence Industries can meet the requirement to build a functioning warship given the low throughput of ships. We will see more ships with handover problems as skills deteriorate and those in dockyard training diminish.

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                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  The continued decline in British Maritime output, at all levels, both Manpower and ship types, started with closures of the iconic British (and one Irish Shipping) Companies in the 1980's, followed by the closures of great yards that built both the Merchant Fleet and the Royal Navy. Building anything became more difficult and prolonged as both Civil Service and Politicians set about reducing Defence Budgets trying to do more with less. Tri-Service sharing concepts, one stop shops, shared Command structures led to pressures within Services to get a share of shrinking Budgets. The current shrinkage is critical for the RN given the unit costs of ship types. There is a question as to whether British Yards and Defence Industries can meet the requirement to build a functioning warship given the low throughput of ships. We will see more ships with handover problems as skills deteriorate and those in dockyard training diminish.
                  The only reason why British yards are getting major orders from the RN is to keep them open and keep jobs.

                  Every reason given (maintaining a strategic shipbuilding capability, retaining skills base etc) are excuses

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                  • You are mostly correct. They still have to meet certain on scene criteria in order to maintain being a plausible player in world naval leagues. This often results in mismatching ships with AOP requirements such as large units monitoring drug smuggling etc. There is a need therefore for an OPV+ vessel that can be deployed singly or in pairs worldwide with a self defence capability and some strike ability. Whatever is required in Frigates remains relevant while OPV's fill in the gap's at home and abroad. It's not just a cheaper option there was always the need, luckily the USN always had such a force in the USCG. Skills in building and advanced maritime electronics are also relevant to the production of Naval Vessels of all types.

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                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      You are mostly correct. They still have to meet certain on scene criteria in order to maintain being a plausible player in world naval leagues. This often results in mismatching ships with AOP requirements such as large units monitoring drug smuggling etc. There is a need therefore for an OPV+ vessel that can be deployed singly or in pairs worldwide with a self defence capability and some strike ability. Whatever is required in Frigates remains relevant while OPV's fill in the gap's at home and abroad. It's not just a cheaper option there was always the need, luckily the USN always had such a force in the USCG. Skills in building and advanced maritime electronics are also relevant to the production of Naval Vessels of all types.
                      The Caribbean guard ship was normally a type 42 destroyer. Then they started deploying RFAs..... because the numbers of fighting ships is so low

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                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        The Caribbean guard ship was normally a type 42 destroyer. Then they started deploying RFAs..... because the numbers of fighting ships is so low
                        Well it was the 42 because by the end of it's life it was just a gun and helicopter for all intents, what was it (or was it) when you were talking about during the Cold War period?

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                        • Think the Type 23s did WIGS in the '90s and this suggests they still do

                          HMS Lancaster, a type 23 Frigate is in Gibraltar for a few days to top up on fuel and supplies and allow its crew some rest and recuperation. HMS Lancaster recently completed a 9-month deployment to the South Atlantic where she conducted Atlantic Patrol Tasking, and made over 23 port visits in 18 countries.

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                          • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                            Well it was the 42 because by the end of it's life it was just a gun and helicopter for all intents, what was it (or was it) when you were talking about during the Cold War period?
                            Think it was during the 00s

                            The type 42 was still in service

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                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Think it was during the 00s

                              The type 42 was still in service
                              Oh they were still in service but the Sea Dart wasn't (I seem to remember one time when they arrived in South Africa with dummy missiles) as it had run out of service life, leaving an "Air Defence" Destroyer that couldn't actually defend.

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                              • Error in Mercopress. HMS Lancaster sailed through Panama Canal, Down the west Coast of South America and around CAPE HORN not Good Hope.

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