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Scorpion replacment?

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  • I believe the Scorpion round is based on the gun of the Saladin.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • they are the same as far as I know; the velocity was too slow for solid shot to work against decent armour and sabot rounds that small were too expensive for their size, so it was either HEAT or HESH, to defeat armour. Brits had a particular love of HESH. I don't know how good the gun was in combat, though.

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      • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
        they are the same as far as I know; the velocity was too slow for solid shot to work against decent armour and sabot rounds that small were too expensive for their size, so it was either HEAT or HESH, to defeat armour. Brits had a particular love of HESH. I don't know how good the gun was in combat, though.
        They love HESH so much Challenger 2 much the only rifled 120mm in the world and no one makes ammo for it anymore

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        • Cue endless debate on UK fora about refurbing Ch2 into Ch3 with a Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore, or building a new, from the ground up, British tank, albeit with the RH 120mm and a German engine and gearbox, but built in the Uk to preserve UK jobs....

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          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            Cue endless debate on UK fora about refurbing Ch2 into Ch3 with a Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore, or building a new, from the ground up, British tank, albeit with the RH 120mm and a German engine and gearbox, but built in the Uk to preserve UK jobs....
            Thought the remaining Ch2's were already being refitted with a smoothbore? Given the (relatively) small numbers of MBT's left in service (what it's about 250?) is it really feasible to do a homegrown design for a Ch3?

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            • The quick fix was to buy the latest Leos but, of course, this had the daily mail readers in a lather and the "British jobs" was invoked. Allegedly, the CH2 can't be converted to smoothbore because of storage issues for fixed cartridges and other UK-only "issues"...

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              • Back to a possible Scorpion replacement. What would the role be? Fire support? Can I be heretical and suggest AMOS/NEMO? That would give both an indirect fire and a direct fire capability.

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                • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                  Back to a possible Scorpion replacement. What would the role be? Fire support? Can I be heretical and suggest AMOS/NEMO? That would give both an indirect fire and a direct fire capability.
                  The Army is organised on conventional military lines providing a sufficiently flexible structure to carry out all the roles assigned by Government. The Army is a standing force and provides the primary capabilities for joint military operations at home and combined military Peace Support Operations abroad.

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                  • The page is cringe worthy reading.

                    It reads like kingdom protecting propaganda. And another thing; surveillance, target acquisition and recce do NOT equal intelligence. Those four areas produce data and information FOR processing (hopefully) into intelligence. You can't go out and observe intelligence through a thermal imaging suite.

                    If the defence forces were serious about ISTAR, they would merge the entire cavalry corps into one unit along with 1 MIC and join it with a dedicated Military Intelligence Company staffed with specialist analysts and a field Signals unit. Then and only then would you have something nearing the required mass, specialist knowledge and technological assets to perform Istar tasks remotely close to NATO level standards. And oh yeah don't forget about an entirely new Mechanised EW company bolted on and an MOU to the 5eyes nations about access to their Intel network. Other wise it's all talk and text in a Walting In house developed Istar doctrinal publication that is used as a door stop after printing.
                    Last edited by TangoSierra; 22 April 2017, 16:10.

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                    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                      Back to a possible Scorpion replacement. What would the role be? Fire support? Can I be heretical and suggest AMOS/NEMO? That would give both an indirect fire and a direct fire capability.
                      Not heresy......

                      ...but more importantly ask:
                      1. Now that Scorpion has been retired what loss in capability has been incurred?
                      2. Where did Scorpion fit into current operational usage or doctrine?
                      3. Would AMOS, etc. not be better for Arty Corps to keep indirect fire support somewhwere in range of Inf and Cav elements?

                      .....and place all these answers in the context of recent, mechanised mobile overseas deployments and capability for similar future missions.
                      An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                      • Ref Scorpion replacement, Well what is 1 Armd Cav Sqns role?

                        They are an element of the DF Reserve and armoured recce capability. It should also be capable of all the other Cav roles and delivering direct fire support.

                        So to me that says they are on the right track with the MRV (direct fire with an armoured recce sized gun, dismountable element, armoured (probably should be uparmoured), good strategic and operational mobility (relatively good tactical). I'm not sure of its sensor fit (but a mast with radar and optics wouldn't hurt (or at least carry the kit internally). It is relatively cheap and have commonality with the remainder of the armoured fleet. It also would be no harm at all for it to have Javelin.

                        You could also have a bigger gun (40-105mm on sum at least (in 1ACS) but if your talking some your probably talking max 10 for the whole DF).

                        But IMHO it depends on what equipment the rest of the Corps has. You could have:

                        Cav Sqns:
                        Sqn HQ & HQ Tps: LTAVs or LTAVs & CRVs (you may also have APCs & Recovery APCs)
                        Recce Tps: CRVs or MRVs & CRVs (it could be a mix in each Tp or not)
                        Supp Tps: MRVs or MRVs & CRVs or CRVs or APCs

                        Armd Cav Sqns:
                        Sqn HQ & HQ Tps: LTAVs or LTAVs & MRVs (you may also have APCs & Recovery APCs)
                        Recce Tps: MRVs (could include some upgunned)
                        Supp Tp: MRVs or CRVs or APCs or upgunned MRVs

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                        • TangoSierra thats an excellent post
                          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            ... So to me that says they are on the right track with the MRV (direct fire with an armoured recce sized gun, dismountable element, armoured (probably should be uparmoured), good strategic and operational mobility (relatively good tactical). I'm not sure of its sensor fit (but a mast with radar and optics wouldn't hurt (or at least carry the kit internally). It is relatively cheap and have commonality with the remainder of the armoured fleet. It also would be no harm at all for it to have Javelin.

                            You could also have a bigger gun (40-105mm on sum at least (in 1ACS) but if your talking some your probably talking max 10 for the whole DF).
                            As ST said, the Cav should reorient and refocus and get serious sensor kit. And I'd arm everything with a 40mm CTA unmanned turret (secondary HMG, optional [FFBNW] ATGM). I do not think anything bigger is needed. Ideally tracks to avoid easily mined roads. Uparmourable. Lynx anybody?

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                            • You seem to be keen to retain tracks when the best international practice is wheels. Modern AWD afvs have as good, if not better offroad performance as those with tracks.
                              This is not an opinion, it is an experience. If tracks were better at avoiding mined routes, then both the US and UK armed forces would not have spent so much time, effort and money on wheeled AFVs for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, where landmines on all main routes was a regular occurrence.
                              Tracks have their place, don't get me wrong, but not for a force that will spend most of its time traversing mine cleared routes.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • As someone pointed out here before, all you get with tracks is practise at fixing broken ones and practise for ARVs to drag tanks back to the Depot.....the loss of Scorpion is the loss of a mobile main gun and unless you can drag the present DF artillery out of their beds and get them to bring their toys on tour, then you are dependent on your friends bringing their big guns or the enemy conveniently having none. ATGWs and 30mm are not a whole fix for the lack of a good main gun and an unwillingness to bring the 105s on tour. Finance would have a fit if the DF started blasting off Javs and so on at the rate the UK does. If you don't want 90s or 105mm main guns on the Mowags, then get the wheeled guns or towed mortars brought into play.

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