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  • Good post!

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    • You see. It is possible to have intelligent discussions on this forum. I was losing hope for a while.
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        As you say it depends on what you are training for.... Ireland isn't suitable for large scale tank/AFV engagements by battalion plus sized formations, due to a lack of large open areas without mountains, forests, wide fast flowing rivers, urban areas and other obstacles. Hence it wouldn't be a good idea for any one intend on invading Ireland to bring them to the party!
        In fairness, Dev, it's not like we have the variety of terrain and weather conditions
        that the US, for instance, has, in order to be able to train for EVERY eventuality

        Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
        Oh...do I remember that ladder I still don't know how the pair of us got under that trip wire without setting it off, carrying all our kit, the ladder, a mousehole charge and a sandbag of smoke grenades. Still we did get into shit for ditching that ladder
        Yeh .... AND? That was only a good CQMS doing his job properly, obviously !!!



        Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
        In fairness, in the hypothetical scenario I just described, the likelihood is that you'll be wearing civvies and chest rig. ....
        A tactic which would result in you being shot as an irregular.... :- (
        "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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        • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
          A tactic which would result in you being shot as an irregular.... :- (
          Well I guessed that in that scenario you're being shot at anyway; at least make them think twice before pulling the trigger.
          Woodland camo is no good in innercity Dublin anyhow.

          Besides, if you got captured, the worst you can expect is a good walloping with a welly
          Last edited by SwiftandSure; 10 April 2010, 00:28. Reason: adding a cheeky comment

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          • Great post
            "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

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            • Some good posts on this subject and as TH has said its good to see a bit of mature debate.
              In my experience and has been said before.All Armies train to fight the last war.Why does the DF still insist on training to dig trenches and hold area against an armoured enemy when in all likelihood we would be carpet bombed or gassed out of it in 24 hours
              While i fully subscribe to the pack as light as you can doctrine,even that has limits.We still need to be able to sustain ourselves and survive the elements.Logistics in the DF has come along way during my time and will probably improve even furthur with time.But we will NEVER have enough transport or armour(unless we go to war,when the Gov will no doubt throw money at us albeit too late)so we need to be able as a Light infantry based force to hump our kit.Wheater thats over a mountain to take over a town(Thank you SaS) or to carry out delaying ops in the hills and forests.We still need to train for it.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                Besides, if you got captured, the worst you can expect is a good walloping with a welly
                Don't be bold....
                "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                Comment


                • Tanks, UAV's, CAS, all those fabulous technological advances.
                  In Timor, we walked. We humped, call it what you like.
                  No CAS or Tanks in Liberia either.
                  And Janjawid in Toyotas in Chad.

                  You train as you fight. You have to be proficient in ALL the skills. Excellence in the basic skills. After that you adapt, stay flexible.
                  I agree that we should be more mission specific, but what's the mission?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
                    You have to be proficient in ALL the skills. Excellence in the basic skills. After that you adapt, stay flexible.
                    Quote of the Year!
                    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by apod View Post
                      Whether thats over a mountain to take over a town(Thank you SaS) or to carry out delaying ops in the hills and forests.We still need to train for it.
                      Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
                      Tanks, UAV's, CAS, all those fabulous technological advances.
                      In Timor, we walked. We humped, call it what you like.
                      No CAS or Tanks in Liberia either.
                      And Janjawid in Toyotas in Chad.

                      You train as you fight. You have to be proficient in ALL the skills. Excellence in the basic skills. After that you adapt, stay flexible.
                      I agree that we should be more mission specific, but what's the mission?
                      (Mods, apologies in advance, this isn't very webbing/smock related)

                      Firstly, fiannoglach, thanks for the input, good post!

                      Lads, I agree. I'm all for soldiers to be conditioned to the hardships of difficult terrain, and for "improvise, adapt and overcome" to be the mantra of any DF soldier. Personal skills should always be rehearsed and refreshed and as you mentioned, constantly striving for "Excellence".
                      But I stand by my opinion that digging in and operating from harbour areas in fields and forests is a thing of the past for the common infantry soldier, and that today's platform for basic training should be the urban environment, whether its for a shanty town in Chad, a maze of compounds in Afghanistan, a Bosnian village, or innercity Dublin.
                      I think it's often thought of in military circles that going into the field and exercising harbour drills in a forest should be the bedrock of all military training and that training such as OBUA and mechanized infantry work is regarded as "the sexy stuff" reserved for better trained troops.

                      It would be foolhardy to presume that your enemy will consistantly be less sophisticated than you, be it in the matter of technology, organisation, logistics or tactics. There will come a day that the DF have to compete against an enemy who are as professionally trained and equipped as itself, if not better.
                      Every training exercise I've taken part in so far in the RDF has ended up going up against 3 angry men in a field with poor morale. I've yet to hear of an exercise whereby we're taking on a Pln of highly trained and motivated paratroopers who are conducting a recce ahead of possible invasion or a drug-crazed militia going on a sporadic killing ramage through villages.

                      I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios. (again, I'm not fully abreast of what the PDF get up to, so I'm talking from an RDF viewpoint) I've seen RDF NCO's fold when I casually ask them one on one, what do we do when we're mid-way through a Pln assault and a multitude of other firing positions open up? The normal answer is, "It's okay, the Coy/Bn are right behind us, they'll take the fight to the enemy..." as if to say that everytime that a platoon is asked to conduct a foot patrol, the Coy will be right there with them ready to act as on the spot QRF. This isn't the Cold War with plans to advance in huge battlegroups, the theatres have changed, and small light infantry units with increasing firepower, working independently of each other whilst remaining within reach of logistical resupply is swiftly becoming the norm in a lot of theatres.

                      Training to fight the last war wouldn't be too bad a prospect if only it were true, but it's not. The last wars are Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Georgia, and I've yet to hear of new lessons being learned and taught from these conflicts. Just because we weren't in those wars, doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from their mistakes.
                      Simple things like having mine detectors being carried as part of the section's loadout seeing as IEDs are now the key threat in most theatres. I mean surely, even after today's news in Nothern Ireland, having troops learn new current methods in how to detect IEDs should be mission critical training wherever you are! My unit are presently learning the 84mm AT weapon and unarmed combat, so we're well covered if Jackie Chan decides to invade in a tank!! To me, that's the "sexy stuff" that can wait until more realistic basic skills are learnt first.

                      It's true we don't know what the next mission is, but we can all but guarantee it'll involve civilian interaction, and more than likely operating in areas with dense populations. Training troops at a basic level on how to conduct themselves and develop skills and drills to work in those environments will be far more beneficial than running around the woods letting of blanks and pyro in my own opinion.

                      Who knows, if we're lucky NAMA might churn up a few decent bits of land with ghost estates that could be tweaked into FIBUA villages at little cost for us all to train in one day

                      Thanks for the debate lads! I enjoy hearing your points of view and taking in the valid experience shared here.

                      Again, apologies for going off topic.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                        I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios.
                        Mainly because the RDF is not able for it. I hear so many time why can't we do this or that, why aren't we jumping out of Mowags etc.
                        Most RDF can't handle a rifle safely. We don't do the basics right. Why should we expect to do anything more complicated?
                        You go on most PNCOs Cses and the number of people who have done section in attack or stayed on the ground overnight is in the low teens.
                        The RDF isn't ready for anything more than the basics and that is unlikely to change for a while.

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                        • Plus there's no money or interest to get us to a credible, consistent base level let alone allow us to practice the situations seen in Iraq or Afghanistan.
                          "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                            I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios.
                            In fairness, some NCOs and officers do their best. On a parade night we were presented with a scenario of being confronted with armed militia, after receiving a CO/D6 lecture, who were acting aggressive but not actually engaging. Myself and a couple of the other lads were in the place of militia confronting the section. It ended with us laying down weapons and our "ringleader" playing with his mobile phone after the section had advanced next to a concealed IED (a mortar tube). We ran it again afterwards and results, according to the NCOs, were more satisfactory.

                            Now, I'm not sure if the NCOs have attended courses on the subject, but it definitely got the interest of the troops, was a change of pace and presented us with a scenario that soldiers around the world are facing on a daily basis.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                              But I stand by my opinion that digging in and operating from harbour areas in fields and forests is a thing of the past for the common infantry soldier
                              Tell that to the British Army they still do them.


                              Every training exercise I've taken part in so far in the RDF has ended up going up against 3 angry men in a field with poor morale. I've yet to hear of an exercise whereby we're taking on a Pln of highly trained and motivated paratroopers who are conducting a recce ahead of possible invasion or a drug-crazed militia going on a sporadic killing ramage through villages.
                              Walk before you can run, people who have been on courses in the last few years will have enemy with armour etc.

                              I find the training and attitude in the RDF very 2 dimensional and that no emphasis is being placed on training for dynamic scenarios. (again, I'm not fully abreast of what the PDF get up to, so I'm talking from an RDF viewpoint) I've seen RDF NCO's fold when I casually ask them one on one, what do we do when we're mid-way through a Pln assault and a multitude of other firing positions open up? The normal answer is, "It's okay, the Coy/Bn are right behind us, they'll take the fight to the enemy..." as if to say that everytime that a platoon is asked to conduct a foot patrol, the Coy will be right there with them ready to act as on the spot QRF.
                              Unless you are part of a patrol (generally smaller than a platoon) they are correct, if you are advancing to contact or similar that is.

                              Comment


                              • Would a multitude of firing positions be called "Depth positions " by any chance.
                                ALL and i mean ALL the platoon (and quite often section) attacks we PDF Infantry types do in training have depth positions opening up on us.Usually at the most inopurtune moments.Go to the NCOTW and they employ bunkers etc that are next to impossible to locate(binos are a must for all i/c's)Casualties and PW's are also always introduced. Counter IED training is now on our Pot NCO syllabus and is growing to other courses.A "Lessons learned" cell is being set up as part of DDFT branch along with a page on the D trg intranet site.So i think you might be looking at things from a snails eye view SaS.We arent as backward as you might think.
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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