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  • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
    Did that used to work the Scottish Isles for Calmac? Quite small for a ferry. About the same dimensions as an OPV. Close coastal waters in shallows like that are not a good environment for ships like that in a storm.
    Straits Ferries now Blueridge was then a small privately owned startup low cost alternative to the larger Interislander operation owned by NZ Rail a state owned enterprise. The Cook Strait in a tropical cyclone is not a great environment for any ship to be honest especially around the entrance to Wellington harbour in an easterly and where the Pacific current and the Tasman current meet. That same day as the photo was taken a 15000 tonne Korean vessel ran aground further up the East Coast in Gisborne.

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    • Hopefully RNZN highlighted the issues

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      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Hopefully RNZN highlighted the issues

        http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/downloads/med...canterbury.pdf
        So basicly spend 'x' amount of millions building a ship.... have some one killed.. and spend another similar sum trying to rectify it.

        Lesson to be learned.... stay the fcuk away from that type of design.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • Includes a good pic of Cantabury’s carrying capacity

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          • That ship was a bad bad decision by NZDF its pi$$ poor to think that naval people could consider that a commercial design created to plough the irish sea for a couple of hours at a time could become a military vessel designed to traverse the southern oceans. I really really hope that our lot only went over to learn what kind of design WONT work for us in the atlantic.
            "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
            "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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            • The ship will exhibit poor sea keeping qualities for ocean patrolling in the higher sea states but, over time, the RNZN should be able to develop practices and procedure to accommodate the sea keeping performance.
              A ball of shite, will always be just that!
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                That ship was a bad bad decision by NZDF its pi$$ poor to think that naval people could consider that a commercial design created to plough the irish sea for a couple of hours at a time could become a military vessel designed to traverse the southern oceans. I really really hope that our lot only went over to learn what kind of design WONT work for us in the atlantic.
                There is one myth that needs to cleared up.

                It was not the RNZN's fault. They did not want it - but were politically forced to go along with it. Their preference was either the RSS Endurance which was mentioned favourably in the Sealift Review of 2000 or the Hyundai offering. The oversight of the whole Project Protector was run out of the Department of PM and Cabinet and Treasury. The RNZN also did not recommend the 55m IPV's that were bought but again were forced by their 'clients' - the Ministry of Fisheries and the Customs Department whose policy thoughts dominated the 2001 Maritime Forces Review and played into what essentially was the anti-defence bias of the then NZ Government leadership. To keep the then government under its 1% of GDP max defence spend they got a measly $500m for seven ships. Thus the cheapest MRV, the smallest OPV they could get away with that had a hanger and a flight deck - which they then put a limited ice belt which was only realistic on a vessel ideally 15m longer (another Naval suggestion ignored) and even then cut a OPV and IPV from the original 2001 MFR recommendation.

                You guys should understand that often Defence is treated like a second class citizen if the Taoiseach does not really care or value them.

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                • Did I hear the IPVs are all tied up at port and would probably be binned soon?
                  It is unfortunte when non defence agencies get to have too much influence on the selection of defence equipment.
                  Hopefully the lessons learnt by the RNZN will come home with those who went to review the MRV from the Irish NS.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • I have sympathy for all the points you make. NZ maritime environment is at least as aggressive as here in the Atlantic and more so towards the ice shelves. You need stable deep tonnage to provide capability and some crew comfort for various taskings, which for us can be from 28 days to 90 plus days overseas and possibly longer. The civil masters tend to listen to advice involving cost reductions whereas the professional has Naval capability in mind, not least crew safety and as wide an operating envelope as possible. Hopefully we will get it as right as we are allowed!!

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                    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                      Did I hear the IPVs are all tied up at port and would probably be binned soon?
                      It is unfortunte when non defence agencies get to have too much influence on the selection of defence equipment.
                      Hopefully the lessons learnt by the RNZN will come home with those who went to review the MRV from the Irish NS.
                      Think it was 2016 that they decided to sell them off and get another OPV in replacement, at least some of the issues is the intention was the "clients" were going to provide some of the crews but never did.

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                      • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                        Did I hear the IPVs are all tied up at port and would probably be binned soon?
                        It is unfortunte when non defence agencies get to have too much influence on the selection of defence equipment.
                        Hopefully the lessons learnt by the RNZN will come home with those who went to review the MRV from the Irish NS.
                        It was not lessons learnt by the RNZN per se - it was that the lessons they tried to teach the government were ignored by non defence agencies.

                        They Navy were deemed as purely a service provider for MAOT - Multi-agency government tasks - thus the 'clients' (other government departments) got to dictate the business case for the whole project and Treasury the budget.

                        The 55m IPV's lack endurance - they only can patrol 7-10 days before returning to port for fresh water and fuel where as the OPV's where last 21-28 days before requiring replenishment. They lack helicopter facilities and were bought for inshore fisheries patrol and customs interception - out to the contiguous zone, which frankly is not where the real compliance and enforcement issues are. There are now less then 600 inshore fisher quota holders and the real action is the FFFV's from Russia, China et al who are in the outer EES or southern ocean.

                        In terms of core crew there is only a difference of 12 per vessel between them and an OPV. They are pointless - an anachronism.

                        Two IPV's are still used - one essentially a sea training / response vessel and the other they found a use for by basing it up in Fiji where it actually is quite useful. The two others are tied up. Defence is perfectly happy with that because they achieve not a hell of a lot. One P-3K in a 10 hour lap of honour can achieve far more for resource protection than four IPV's all at sea for a week. There is nothing wrong with the IPV's as vessels and in the right maritime context they would be very useful. It is likely that two will end up as sold as excess defence articles and be replaced by a much larger vessel similar to the Canadian new DeWolf Class.

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                        • It’s in the name Inshore PV hence the short legs etc

                          Where they being used offshore?

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                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            It’s in the name Inshore PV hence the short legs etc

                            Where they being used offshore?
                            That was expected of them by the client users. Instead of a small OPV they got a big IPV. Armidale type would have been better suited but it was too "warry".
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                              Did I hear the IPVs are all tied up at port and would probably be binned soon?
                              It is unfortunte when non defence agencies get to have too much influence on the selection of defence equipment.
                              Hopefully the lessons learnt by the RNZN will come home with those who went to review the MRV from the Irish NS.
                              They could have googled it and saved them selves a journey!
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                That was expected of them by the client users. Instead of a small OPV they got a big IPV. Armidale type would have been better suited but it was too "warry".
                                At 57m and 300 tons the Armidales were limited as well and being aluminium they were more fragile. They operated in the comparatively benign northern tropical coasts of Australia, the Torres strait, Gulf of Carpenteria. The fact the RAN ended up big IPV's coloured the NZ IPV decision, but for steel hulls. They would never cope with southern NZ waters which are similar to west coast of Ireland in nastinest. It is indicative that the new class of RAN patrol vessels will be OPV sized.

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